Constructing a Winning, Sustainable Revenue Strategy with Roee Hartuv

Michael Lander (00:03.217)
Roey, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Salesforce podcast. It's great to have you.

Roee @ Winning By Design (00:40.492)
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Michael Lander (00:42.641)
So, for the benefit of our guests, just introduce yourself. Who are you? What do you do? And something unusual about yourself.

Roee @ Winning By Design (00:49.026)
Yeah, so my name is Raviy Altouf. I'm a revenue architect at Winning by Design. I started my career in sales. This is where I spend most of my career, but I would say four years ago, I transitioned into a go-to-market strategy consultant and joined Winning by Design. Today, I run the revenue architecture practice. Yeah, we work with fantastic B2B recurring revenue businesses worldwide.

Mostly though from US, mostly SaaS companies have them assess their go-to-market strategies and design the processes that fits to an efficient and sustainable growth strategy.

Michael Lander (01:31.6)
and something unused about yourself?

Roee @ Winning By Design (01:33.71)
Yeah, I had a career. I was a combat helicopter pilot. I don't know if you've got that a lot, but that's...

Michael Lander (01:38.833)
Wow.

I've never had that. A combat helicopter pilot. Wow.

Roee @ Winning By Design (01:44.994)
Yeah, yeah, I did that for eight years. Yeah.

Michael Lander (01:50.577)
What did that teach you about leadership and human beings and stress? Just out of interest.

Roee @ Winning By Design (01:57.55)
All of that, how to cope with stress, prioritize making split decisions, how to work in a team. Yeah, all that, of course.

Michael Lander (02:07.227)
Amazing, amazing, wow, amazing. So the term revenue architect, just before we get into the questions, what does that mean? Because I've been around sales a lot and that seems to be a new kind of recurring theme around LinkedIn and other places. Just help our listeners understand.

Roee @ Winning By Design (02:24.93)
Yeah, fantastic. And when we design, we believe that go-to-market strategies and processes need to be designed and planned according to revenue. sorry. According to scientific principles based on data. And we're trying to take some of the great things about architecture and use this term in order. Hey, let's build and design.

a revenue system, a revenue factory based on scientific principles and models and frameworks. And this is what we're...

Michael Lander (03:04.435)
Brilliant. And that really kind of like, for me, that definitely rings a bell. I've been talking to all my clients for years about a sales and marketing engine. So in different terms, you need a system. You need a repeatable system. You couldn't drive a car down the road that one day produces, you know, 400 brake horsepower and goes at 80 miles an hour. And the next day you can't turn the engine on and you're never sure which day you're going to face. It has to be

Roee @ Winning By Design (03:29.975)
Exactly.

Michael Lander (03:33.821)
predictable way of generating new business.

Roee @ Winning By Design (03:37.004)
When you think of it, of the way, most of the companies that are out there still are working based on gut feeling, right? So let's bring an expert. They have done this in the past, very successful in company A, company B, replicate that and we'll hit success. But we believe that there's a better way of doing things. Let's look at what are we selling to, who are we selling? Let's build a strategy that is right.

for the company, for our buyers, and not based on whoever we're hiring and what their past experience was. And we believe that we can build that kind of systems, those kinds of, we call them revenue factories, based on frameworks and models, and scientific frameworks and models.

Michael Lander (04:29.553)
Fascinating. So let's get into our questions. I'm also conscious that you've got limited time. So what do you think's changed over the last five years in the SaaS tech market regarding valuation models, the obsession with pure top line growth, and then also just like follow up with the current need for profitability? Because obviously what used to be the word on the street was it's all about sales growth, profitability will come, but we need to get top line growth.

So what do you think's changed in the last five years?

Roee @ Winning By Design (05:00.558)
There's a critical moment, a pivotal moment in our industry, December of 2021. And I think the event that symbolizes everything is...

Roee @ Winning By Design (05:17.326)
That's right.

Roee @ Winning By Design (05:23.128)
Sorry.

Michael Lander (05:23.299)
So just for the producers, so at about five minutes in, roughly, we take a pause. So just go back to five minutes and then recut, we'll count in and we'll start again. So we'll just do that question. So I'll count you in, Rory. It's absolutely fine. You ready? Three, two, one.

Roee @ Winning By Design (05:43.502)
All right, fantastic question. So there was a pivotal moment, December of 2021. This is where Dropbox stocks plummeted 40 % in a matter of three days. And that signaled the first event of our SaaS market crashing. Basically, there's no other way. Our market crashed. That was the first sign that that happened. Over the course of 2022,

Michael Lander (05:55.346)
Well.

Roee @ Winning By Design (06:12.654)
We started to see all the major companies out there, sluggish sales, sluggish growth, and we all experienced that. So our market completely changed at that year, 2022. Up until then, was, yeah, money was relatively cheap. Everybody was buying from everybody. Corona was also a fuel there.

Everybody was happy. Everybody was growing. And we all saw how successful companies with amazing valuations and exits happened before that. After that, our market completely changed. We no longer had IPOs.

Michael Lander (06:54.675)
And so what exactly because the IPO market seems to own I don't follow it very very closely but that doesn't seem to be as many tech IPO's as they used to be.

Roee @ Winning By Design (07:05.038)
In the past year, like December of 24 right now, we had only three IPOs of SaaS companies. Only three. In the good old days, it was around, I don't know exact numbers, but between 1680 a year, 2020, 2021. There are no IPOs and there's a bottleneck. Why? Because there are no IPOs. So VCs, the investors, private investor, are not getting their money back and they cannot

Michael Lander (07:13.905)
Wow.

Michael Lander (07:20.486)
Wow.

Okay.

Roee @ Winning By Design (07:34.926)
pull that money back into the ecosystem. that's, yeah. So that's one part. And it all starts, by the way, with, it's not, one of the things is that the public market investors have signaled to the private market investor, hey, we're not going to buy or invest in companies that are no longer profitable. Whatever.

Michael Lander (07:37.691)
Exactly. There's no liquidity.

Roee @ Winning By Design (08:03.182)
type of companies that you want to go public, we will invest only if they are profitable or have a very quick turnaround down to becoming profitable. And that's what we're seeing. there are, according to Deer Room, there are more than 1,200 private SaaS unicorns out there. So private SaaS unicorns, most of them,

Michael Lander (08:29.725)
grief.

Roee @ Winning By Design (08:33.416)
are gearing up or want or based on the numbers in 2020 and 2021, they were supposed to go public over no IPOs. They're stuck there. We've got a bunch of companies that are going nowhere. So they're not doing an IPO. PEs are buying them. So we see a lot of acquisition from PEs, which is fantastic. But of course, how many companies can PEs invest and buy?

Michael Lander (08:41.639)
VAM.

Roee @ Winning By Design (09:01.848)
There's a limited amount. We're talking about more than 1200 companies that are waiting. And of course the big tech companies like Google and Salesforce and Amazon, they have a limit to what and how they can buy because the US regulation is not allowing them to consolidate the market. Right. So Lena Con and FTC, all that there is happening. So yeah, our market is stuck right now. Unless, unless

you're focused on AI. And then it's normal even.

Michael Lander (09:34.044)
Right.

Michael Lander (09:37.861)
Exactly. The rules don't seem to apply. No.

If you just want to buy a whole stack of Nvidia GPUs, then there seems to be money out there to do that. But that's a separate topic. So what needs to change then? So on the grounds that IPOs aren't happening, and therefore liquidity events are fewer, and therefore private investors have got money tied up in SaaS companies that they either want to exit or they want to see the valuation premium come out the other end, how do you

Roee @ Winning By Design (09:49.1)
Yeah.

Michael Lander (10:12.471)
What's going to happen? So what needs to happen to those SaaS tech companies? What's the kind of situation with profitability? Has the focus been more on growth, less on bottom line profits? Will that change? Is it possible to change, given the expectations around growth? Because can you actually, can you acquire customers at a rate, at a cost effective rate, in a way which ensures that you do get bottom line profitability drop through?

Roee @ Winning By Design (10:29.078)
Yeah, also.

Roee @ Winning By Design (10:40.366)
I'll start off with the last point. I'm not sure that a lot of these companies will be able to turn around and conduct business differently.

Michael Lander (10:48.659)
Well.

Roee @ Winning By Design (10:50.528)
a lot of these companies will disappear.

Michael Lander (10:53.915)
as will their investors' money.

Roee @ Winning By Design (10:56.07)
the investors money. It's already happening. We haven't heard about this but down rounds that happened are happening and again there's a limit because the model and how it works is that you invest, you as an investor put your money in a company and seven years later you're going to get 20x or 5x whatever the model is and whatever the company does right and that's not happening. So

The companies that will be able to do that transition, it's all about becoming profitable. And when we saw those three companies that did do an IPO, OneScreen being one of them, they're all at between that 300 to 500 million ARR. And we know for a fact that other companies that are gearing up for an IPO are at those ranges and they are profitable. Unlike

Michael Lander (11:48.285)
They are profitable. Yeah.

Roee @ Winning By Design (11:50.574)
In 2020, when you could have done an IPO without even being close or don't even have a roadmap to become profitable. yeah, that's something that will. Yeah. Not a problem. We have a lot of monies in the bank and the IPO will give us much more money to burn. It's no longer the game completely changed for us. Now these companies.

Michael Lander (12:10.867)
So what's different? Yeah, what's different with those companies? How are they profitable? And yet the other in the 1200 buckets aren't.

Roee @ Winning By Design (12:18.552)
Well, this is where, first of all, there are successful companies that were working with a different mindset and grew differently. So not grow at all costs. Let's pour money at our problems or at our growth in order to grow the company, but let's grow in a more sustainable, thoughtful way. And I think OneScream is a great example. I just studied their 10K in details. And yeah, this is what they did.

systematically years before they went IPO, they started to focus on profitability. So cutting down costs, not only looking at growing from new business, also maintaining, retaining and expanding their current customer base. So this is what these companies need to do.

Michael Lander (13:02.631)
Exactly.

Michael Lander (13:08.669)
Which is, I mean, I am quite old school, but it is good old fashioned business. It's like, you I mean, so you find a customer problem and you find one ideally that's big and growing and you solve that problem for them and you solve it at a ratio that if they pay you $100,000, then they get a million dollars in return somewhere at some point. And you can demonstrate that. And then you acquire those customers and you service them really well and you retain them. And then off the back of that.

then you grow with them and then they refeed to other clients and then you acquire more clients, but it's a slower trajectory. It takes time.

Roee @ Winning By Design (13:47.278)
That's a fantastic point. And I don't know if the VC model works in a slow trajectory. I'm not sure because the VC's model is business model is different than than SaaS companies, right? Their model, their financial people, they take somebody else's money and promise them that in five to seven years, they will return a three X, a five X, whatever it is that they're promising them. Right? That's that's their business model. So for them, the

Michael Lander (14:10.834)
Exactly.

Roee @ Winning By Design (14:16.718)
quickest turnaround time is the best and minimum risk. And until recently, companies evaluation was all about growth rate. It's basically it. Like you can plug in additional variables, but at end of the day, how fast you grow dictated your evaluation. So the faster you grow, the higher your evaluation, the quicker you can do get to an IPO.

Michael Lander (14:44.893)
And the valuation was based around, as far as I understand, it was a multiple of revenue, broadly.

Roee @ Winning By Design (14:51.19)
Exactly, multiple of revenue, but again as a function of your growth rate. If you continue to grow that will put another dimension to your valuation. Now there are different ways to do valuations and I'm not an expert, I'm not a VC or investor expert, but that's basically it. That's what we need to understand. Now because the public sector is telling us that we need to become profitable, that's also part of that. Now does the VC model

Michael Lander (14:56.903)
Yeah, yes, yeah, exactly.

Roee @ Winning By Design (15:21.24)
Will the VVC model work under that? Because as you alluded to, sometimes becoming profitable means that you cannot spend on acquisition, on acquiring new customers as much as you would like to, or you can if you had more money in the bank, right? So you need to sometimes grow slower, however, in a more sustainable way.

Michael Lander (15:25.042)
Yeah.

Michael Lander (15:48.113)
Exactly. And you can't grow at a rate whereby in year one, you lose a ton of money on the hope that in year two and three, you'll recoup that money and it will become profitable because your churn will be too high. And again, I know there's lots of factors when you look at valuations for companies, but managing churn is really important. a lot of companies are very, a lot of clients are very concerned that if the supply base

supplying into them starts to grow too fast, then they take the right off the ball their existing customers. Therefore, service quality goes down. And therefore, the client goes, going to drop you and I'm going to pick up someone else instead. And so you get this increased churn effect because there's too much growth in the supplier. And that again can be a problem.

Roee @ Winning By Design (16:38.222)
That's right. It's a classical problem that we see that companies focus too much on acquisition, focus too much on that new logo that almost every dollar spent is focused on the sales team and maybe the marketing team, not enough on the customer success and the people that are responsible to retain and expand the existing client base. So maniacally focus on acquisition, not focusing on new customers. And that leads a certain mindset, right?

We compensate the sellers on numbers and a lot cases it means I'm going to sell to whoever wants to talk to me. Whether it is the right customer for us, is the right product for the customer and we'll be able to attend them after the first contract expires. So that's kind of the mindset that needs to change for us to...

Michael Lander (17:13.745)
Yeah, exactly.

Roee @ Winning By Design (17:34.766)
look into a more of a sustainable growth strategy.

Michael Lander (17:39.859)
So if you follow on from that kind of macro picture about what's going on, then how can SaaS and tech firms improve sales productivity? What do you think is the route to sales productivity? First of all, what do you mean by sales productivity? And then what's the route to get there?

Roee @ Winning By Design (17:54.338)
Yeah, before we talk about productivity, let's focus on efficiency because that's the first thing, right? Let's focus on efficiency. And efficiency is basically, how do we get more dollars from every dollar spent? Right? And yeah, let's connect that to our previous comment. Can we focus and can we get more revenue from our existing customers? That sometimes means that, instead of

hiring more salespeople, we need to hire more customer success people that will serve our customers, that will make sure that they're getting the impact and the value from our products. Can we be more proactive in identifying expansion opportunities? So this is probably the first thing that we need to look into. The second thing is let's go back to what we believe scientific and data.

driven decisions. Can we analyze and understand where or what is the, if I put in a dollar, we call it on the acquisition side or the customer success, the retention expansion side. If I put a dollar here and a dollar there, what will be the outcome? And this is where we start to model different options. And yeah, so.

Michael Lander (19:09.413)
Exactly.

Roee @ Winning By Design (19:17.058)
That's the first thing. Second thing is, as you said, try to look and improve if we are looking at the acquisition side. What are the sales process? What are the areas that we can improve? So you gave the example of selling to outside. We call it selling outside of the ICP, ideal customer profile. Can we improve that? Can we redefine what is the ideal customer profile? Because with one segment, yeah, they're not retaining enough. We're spending a lot.

There's a comment, let's go into enterprise because we want to close bigger deals, right? So we hear a lot from companies and it sounds great because bigger deal, bigger companies hire ACVs.

Michael Lander (19:50.414)
Hahaha

Michael Lander (19:55.462)
Yeah.

It sounds great from someone as a SaaS company who hasn't done it before. But trying to move from the mid-market into the enterprise market as an ICP, as you well know, that's a very difficult road to tread and requires, I think, relevant to this conversation, the biggest issue is time. It will take you

Roee @ Winning By Design (20:04.001)
Exactly, right?

Michael Lander (20:25.523)
12 months minimum, three years probably at the extremes to sell into those enterprise clients.

Roee @ Winning By Design (20:33.292)
I agree that's a fantastic point, I would love to add things. People also don't consider how much resources these customers suck from you because you're selling to a fortune 500 company. They're your biggest account. They know that. And they say, Hey, this feature, we want that. We want that API connectivity. And then you, your, your product people are spending all their resources instead of following the roadmap.

Michael Lander (20:42.832)
Absolutely.

Michael Lander (20:46.611)
You

Exactly.

Roee @ Winning By Design (21:03.33)
They need to spend all their time on developing that for just one customer.

Michael Lander (21:09.661)
So this is very interesting. think if you look at a SaaS, again, I'm not a SaaS expert by a long chalk, but you look at the SaaS model and obviously it's about to an extent standardization. Every customer has broadly the same kind of features. Some are turned on, some are turned off, but it's broadly the same kind of system. However, if you go into the enterprise space, you end up building 10 different businesses, because every one is very different.

So now you've got a SaaS company that's serving the enterprise market, but it's no longer SaaS. It's got this SaaS mid-market offering, and then this enterprise complex bespoke different instances model. That's a difficult model to build and to run properly.

Roee @ Winning By Design (21:54.67)
Fantastic example. I haven't thought about it in that way. And yeah, it's a fantastic point.

Michael Lander (22:01.619)
And therefore you end up with, then you get conflict at a leadership level about, well, where's the profit? Well, the profits can be in the enterprise market eventually because of bigger deals. Right. Okay. But our business isn't set up for the enterprise market. It's set up for the mid-market business. So how do we transition? Do we create two businesses? It all gets much more complex, I would say. And you can start to move away from core purpose if you're not careful.

Roee @ Winning By Design (22:22.754)
Yeah, I agree.

Roee @ Winning By Design (22:27.714)
Yeah, so we talked about efficiency. That's just one example. are other like there are many other points along that strategy and processes, go to market processes that we can do in order to improve our efficiency as an organization and thereby becoming scalable or sustainable.

Michael Lander (22:48.179)
So if there's a revenue leader that's listening to the podcast and let's say they're doing 100 million of revenue and they're a SaaS company, so ARR is 100 million. So they're a decent size, but they need to get to 300 million. But they've got this kind of problem of, I can't hit the accelerator pedal too hard because it'll drive down profitability. And we're now being asked to drive profitability. What would your advice be to that kind of revenue leader to go?

from 100 to 300 million, what are the kind of the big things they need to be thinking about?

Roee @ Winning By Design (23:21.87)
So first of all, you need to, and that's true for every company that is in that transition period, make sure that you have the right data model. The right data model meaning let's make sure that you have the right data.

to be able to make those decisions. At this point, we want to start, we probably already have a scalable operation, because usually you say like from that 10 million to 20 to 100, you're in that scale up mode. So you have already a system in place, and then you need to start just scaling that, right? And scaling usually means at that point at that level,

Create more processes, hire more people, and have those people execute based on that process. At that $100 million to $300 million range, you're focusing on not profitability, you're on the way to profitability, but productivity. Can we get the same using less resources or getting more using the current resources that we have? And in this case, you're trying to see whether you can

Michael Lander (24:32.264)
Yeah, yeah.

Roee @ Winning By Design (24:39.372)
Reduce costs. Now everybody's talking about AI. That's going to be, I haven't seen any game changing products right now, but everybody's talking about, let's create an SDR agent. Let's create an agent that will be able to save us in our prospecting or will allow us to do things automatically or AI and will reduce the amount of time that everybody's doing. So I think this is the future.

there.

Michael Lander (25:10.333)
I mean, what's interesting, Rui, on that point, I think, if you look at, again, I've just been reading some reports about, it was 675 client interviews, and there was a research report that was produced. I've forgotten the reference to it. I've just been reading it. But some of the things that are coming out of that were they want more personalization. Clients don't want mass customization using AI. They know what's going on, and they're not interested.

You know, something like 90 % don't respond to cold outreach. You know, something like, I think 25 % only were looking at LinkedIn on a regular basis because they're busy people. And when they're differentiating and they're looking at, well, differentiating as in, who do I pick as a supplier to work with? Well, you need to have deep insights and you need to be a sector expert and you need to be a thought leader and you need to solve this problem before.

You need to be the trusted advisor. Remember the old trusted advisor model that was developed in the 1980s, 90s? We're going back to that trusted advisor model. I don't think it ever went away. Certainly not in the enterprise world, but it's certainly becoming more prominent, I would say.

Roee @ Winning By Design (26:17.038)
Mm-hmm.

Roee @ Winning By Design (26:22.67)
That's right.

Michael Lander (26:24.283)
And SaaS companies, I don't think are used to that. They're not used to being the trusted advisor, I don't think. Consultancy companies are. The big five are. That's what they lived on. How SaaS companies are going to make that transition, if they need to, I think will be interesting.

Roee @ Winning By Design (26:34.296)
Yeah. Yeah.

Roee @ Winning By Design (26:43.148)
It also reminds me of an important point.

Roee @ Winning By Design (26:50.958)
When in 2020, 2021, and the years before that, when everybody was buying and everybody was experimenting and money was.

Michael Lander (27:02.257)
Yep. And there was plenty of money around. Yeah, money was cheap. Exactly.

Roee @ Winning By Design (27:06.518)
Our sellers didn't need to know how to sell. You probably had to have a decent product and just go out and say, I'm not saying it was easy, but a lot of companies succeeded and lot of sellers succeeded without really needing to have those good sales skills, as you just mentioned, especially when selling to enterprise, becoming that trusted advisor.

Hey, I just say cyber and security and yeah, the enterprise will follow because yeah, that was a hot topic or still is a hot topic nowadays, right? becoming that trusted advisor and as you said, probably people will continue to buy from people. That is something that there's sellers that learned how to sell in the past five, seven years.

Michael Lander (27:38.098)
Exactly.

Roee @ Winning By Design (28:04.342)
still need to upscale their sales capabilities.

Michael Lander (28:08.175)
Absolutely. And it can take up to, yeah, between 12 and 36 months before an enterprise will buy from you. So what we might be seeing is if they're going to start to auger into the enterprise market, you're going to see this dip whilst they build relationships and therefore the sales flatten. And if they haven't got their retention right, then they're going to start to lose clients on that journey. So the market may well change again.

I think it's very interesting that they're looking at, obviously the enterprise market is very attractive, but it is very difficult to sell into. I've sold them to enterprises for many years that they're very, very, very tricky. It can consume all your time and not be profitable, but they're good long-term clients.

Roee @ Winning By Design (28:43.054)
That's right.

Roee @ Winning By Design (28:46.883)
Mm-hmm.

Roee @ Winning By Design (28:53.944)
Yeah, they are. And usually multi-year kind of contracts. Yeah.

Michael Lander (28:57.073)
Yeah, multi-year contracts and big, big deals, but big deals take a long time to land. Why? Because people like me and my old role in procurement, we think about risk. Well, any time we bring on a new supplier, that injects risk. And if that new supplier is a SaaS company and it's going to be embedded into the heart of our systems environment, I'm going to be concerned about, well, what does your balance sheet look like and what's your growth path and...

What kind of clients are you going after? Are you going to get there in time? Are you going to run out of cash? All those things are on my mind. Because once we engage with you and we start working with you, unpicking all that's pretty difficult.

Roee @ Winning By Design (29:33.966)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Lander (29:42.951)
So salespeople have to have patience and they have to be professional, high-end enterprise type salespeople that can engage with the C-suite. That's not an easy skill to gain at all.

Roee @ Winning By Design (29:51.566)
Mm-hmm.

Roee @ Winning By Design (29:55.19)
Which comes back to another point that I wanted to make, what a company needs to focus on between that 100 million to 300 million. And that 100 million usually might happen even earlier, but you start to look at additional, we call them go-to-market motions. And different, either segments, such as going into enterprise, or different products.

or different regions, this is where you start growing your total addressable market in order to be able to find that $300 million that this is like the next level. So we talked about just one example going into three different segments. So from mid-market going into enterprise, it could be the other way around. It could be introducing a new product to your existing customers or to a new market. And that's also how you probably would find growth and going from that

million to 300 million. And we also see this is a fantastic time for &A's. So companies that are at that 100 million ARR, if they do have enough cash, they will buy other companies, maybe struggling companies that have a fantastic product or an initial customer base and they would buy them for that IP or for that customer base. So that's another kind of leverage and focus for these

companies at these areas.

Michael Lander (31:21.821)
So Roy, I'm conscious of your time. We're at the kind of about 30 minute mark. Just kind of in summary, what are your kind of like top three kind of thoughts for SaaS tech companies as they start to think about profitable sales growth?

Roee @ Winning By Design (31:38.38)
Is the market really changing or is just one of those cycles that things are calming down, but as soon as money will be available, then we will go back to our old bad habit. That's the first one. Second one is AI. alluded to, talked about this briefly, but that's going to do another complete change of our industry. And one of the outcomes that

is related to AI, but not necessarily only because of AI, is the pricing model. Going from, let's say, a suppression model into consumption model, and that's also going to change the way we interact, sell, and engage with our customers. So I think these three are good topics to look out for.

Michael Lander (32:10.845)
Yeah, yeah.

Michael Lander (32:22.556)
Interesting.

Michael Lander (32:26.515)
So interesting, just on that last point before we close, subscription versus consumption models. Do you think there is a bit of a shift going on?

Roee @ Winning By Design (32:34.222)
Yes. Yes. We hear it our customers. Again, there's a lot, I don't know still, you know, it's a good question. There's a hype right now. There's a lot of buzz, a lot of conversation. I don't know if there's a shift. I heard and talking to our customers, they are considering that to a certain extent. I think this is driven by AI. And again, Salesforce three or four weeks ago, Mark Benioff introduced their

Michael Lander (32:35.507)
And what is that?

Michael Lander (32:48.637)
Right.

Roee @ Winning By Design (33:04.11)
moving away from at least in their AI agents moving away from subscription based into a consumption based I think Salesforce as they did throughout the last 15 years they are driving and they are the first trailblazers in the market and I think yeah I think this is definitely a trend that's picking up

Michael Lander (33:20.145)
Exactly.

Michael Lander (33:29.275)
Interesting, need to look out for that. Brilliant, Roey, it's been fantastic. Thank you ever so much. Where can people find out more about you?

Roee @ Winning By Design (33:35.099)
LinkedIn is the best channel.

Michael Lander (33:37.053)
Very good, excellent. Thank you for joining us. It's been a real pleasure.

Roee @ Winning By Design (33:39.704)
Thank you for having me.

Michael Lander (33:41.753)
And we're out. Let me just stop the recording. Let me just check that.