ContextSelling: Tips and Techniques for Effective Sales Calls with Stephen Steers

Mike (00:01.071)
Stephen, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast. It's great to have you.

Stephen Steers (00:13.486)
Sounds like a plan, man.

Stephen Steers (00:24.526)
It's a pleasure to be here today. Thank you so much for having me.

Mike (00:27.631)
And it looks like it's quite early where you are.

Stephen Steers (00:30.67)
Yes, it is about almost half five where I'm at. Yeah, AM for those listening. of course, man. I'm also a high functioning morning person. I don't know where that came from, if that's a good or bad thing, but my brain is at its peak functions early in the morning. Yeah.

Mike (00:34.639)
Wow! Now that's dedication to the cause. That's really dedication to the cause.

Mike (00:44.271)
Mike (00:48.751)
Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, very similar. I'm not quite as early as you, but I perform best in the morning. The afternoons, I get this kind of like this fog about 2 .30, three o 'clock. It's bad.

Stephen Steers (00:53.038)
Hehehehehe

Stephen Steers (00:59.15)
Same. Yeah, I usually go down for a nap around then because it's just like I'm not useful to people right now.

Mike (01:02.383)
Yeah. Or I go for a walk with the dogs or I do something. Exactly. Yeah. So we've got two working cocker spaniels. They're not working as in they work, but the breed is a working cocker spaniel. So hopefully they won't disturb us. Sorry?

Stephen Steers (01:07.694)
What kind of docs do you have?

Stephen Steers (01:14.286)
Okay. I was like, they're in the B2B organization? I said, are they part of your B2B organization since they're working? A lot.

Mike (01:24.111)
Yeah, they just don't get paid. Yeah, exactly. So, Stephen, tell the audience about who are you, what's your background, and then an unusual fact about yourself.

Stephen Steers (01:28.654)
Best kind. Yes, sir.

Stephen Steers (01:37.198)
Sure. Once again, thank you so much for having me today. I'm Steven Steers. I am a native of New York City. I am a sales consultant who created a method I like to call context selling. I play inside of the sales call, which I think we're going to jump into today. And I chose this area because the sales call is the lobby to your business. And so if your lobby isn't clean, if it isn't a nice experience, people aren't going to want to come back or spend any actual time there or tell other people about it.

So I've worked within the neighborhood of about a thousand companies from over 35 different countries, including places like Google, Nike, HTC Paris, Stanford Business School and others. Some really cool names on my roster there, but more than anything else, I enjoy what I do because it helps people put a skillset that they thought was beyond them to use in a way that can feel a little more comfortable. And as one of my mentors likes to say, if it feels like you're selling, you're doing it wrong. So I'm a...

Mike (02:13.551)
Wow.

Mike (02:20.303)
Yeah.

Mike (02:35.023)
Correct.

Stephen Steers (02:35.886)
We're working hard to help people feel a little more comfortable in sales.

Mike (02:38.191)
I couldn't agree more. If you feel like you're selling, you're doing it wrong. If you feel like you're building relationships, you're doing it right.

Stephen Steers (02:41.87)
Yes.

That's it, right? If we can work together today, amazing. If we can't, okay. Maybe there's people who can help each other with. But interesting fact, I was in a Beyonce music video.

Mike (02:50.927)
Exactly. Yes. No! Really? my goodness.

Stephen Steers (02:56.878)
Yeah, I was indeed. It's called party. I think if you could find it on YouTube and I think at about a minute and four seconds, if you look to the top right of the screen, you'll see this guy with an Afro and large sunglasses for a quarter of a second. That's me. So I have 14 plus more minutes left in my 15 minutes of fame. So, you know, if sales doesn't work out, we still got something to work off of.

Mike (03:16.879)
Correct.

Mike (03:21.327)
Just out of interest, how did you get into a Beyonce video? What happened?

Stephen Steers (03:24.782)
Yeah, complete, complete lark for sure. This is, what year is this? This is probably 12 or so years ago and I'm from New York City. So I worked in this very she -she, as what you might call Ponzi fashion house in New York. And in comes this gentleman, like he just, I could tell he was hitting on me and I was like, this is a little weird. So he's like, hey, I really like your style. Do you want to be in Beyonce's next music video?

And I was just like, what a line. And I was like, that can't be true. And again, I'm not gay or anything, but I was like, that's such a ridiculous thing for somebody to say. I was so caught off guard. I was like, you know what? Yeah, you take my number. You text me about that Beyonce music video. Yeah, you go ahead and do that. Four hours later, I get on break and I go into the office to get my lunch or whatever. And I was like, hey, check out this line this guy dropped to me today. He said, I'm going to be in Beyonce's music video. And they're like,

Mike (03:55.823)
Okay?

Mike (04:11.183)
Exactly.

Stephen Steers (04:23.246)
yeah, that's that's Solange's stylist. So if he asked you, you're going to be in it, I'm going to be in it. And I was like, what? And then sure enough, about a week later, I get a text message to to meet at the Sheraton Hotel on Canal Street. And there were a couple of my coworkers there and we got driven out to a trailer park in New Jersey. And I got my. Yeah, it was during the day, though, it was during the day, which was helpful so I could see anybody approaching.

Mike (04:27.663)
wow.

Mike (04:44.463)
which is quite scary probably, thinking, where are we going? Okay, that's good. Okay, that's good.

Stephen Steers (04:53.006)
But yeah, I was in a video and it's just completely ridiculous. Got to meet Solange, waved at Beyonce, saw Kelly Rowland and all that. I'm not big on celebrities, but what a ridiculous thing. So like, I had to do it. You know why? Because I needed to tell you on this podcast. That's exactly why I did it.

Mike (05:00.495)
Brilliant! No, but it's fun! What great fun!

Exactly. Correct. It was all waiting to sell me on this podcast. Correct. Brilliant. Brilliant. So, Stephen, we're going to talk today about discovery calls. So obviously, people in the audience, a lot of people that listen to my podcast are founders, CEOs of entrepreneurial companies, lots of marketing agencies that I've got, and lots of people that are basically selling. They've

Stephen Steers (05:11.79)
That's it.

Mike (05:34.799)
They've got to hit targets and they've got to build new relationships with new people that eventually, hopefully will turn into maybe some business or maybe not. So we're going to talk about the discovery call. So first of all, kind of what is it? How do you first of all get to a discovery call? Because you've got to have actually booked a meeting with someone to get a discovery call. And then why is it so important? Just free form off you go.

Stephen Steers (05:49.966)
Hehehehehe

Stephen Steers (06:00.942)
Okay, so getting a discovery call is a, it means you need to have a value proposition that resonates with your ideal client profile. In essence, whoever you want to sell whatever you sell to, you need to create some compelling action or thought process that invites somebody to take some action. One of the ways that I think works really well, just for me personally, is either speaking on a stage or going from a webinar and inviting people into the experience by giving them some value first. So,

Mike (06:28.591)
Exactly.

Stephen Steers (06:29.646)
really fast about that, I think sales or speaking of podcasts, sure, exactly, right? There's a couple different ways I think about this. I'm going in a pigeon hole here or a rabbit hole. Sorry, it's a little early. But as an example, I read this framework called 7 -4 -11. Have you heard of it, Mike? Okay, so it says,

Mike (06:31.343)
Or speaking on a podcast. Speaking on a podcast. Yeah.

Mike (06:41.679)
And Robert Hull. Yeah.

Mike (06:47.887)
No, I'm always learning something new. So this is my learning something new for the day.

Stephen Steers (06:53.39)
It says that someone needs to spend seven hours with you across four different platforms and you need to make at least 11 touches for you to get a meeting or convert them into some type of activity. And so, yeah.

Mike (07:05.263)
Now that really resonates that I definitely, definitely relate to that. And it's very true. Very, very, very true.

Stephen Steers (07:10.254)
I think so too, right? It's no like and trust. So in that seven hour period, for those that are listening, if you're like, I don't want, I don't want to be in a podcast. Think about that. If you create podcasts, right? People like Mike are generous enough to share some time with you and allow you to talk your talk. Think about the fact that anybody who's looking for you, especially if you're in like a more consultative type of field, they can build a lot of trust by seeing how you think and the value you put out in a podcast. And that's five, six, seven podcasts. If you wrote a book, do you have blog posts?

Mike (07:38.735)
Exactly.

Stephen Steers (07:39.598)
Just having these different things is a great way to put stuff out there that agitates your clientele to then bring them towards you or create asks, right? You got to tell people what to do if you're going to have to book a call. So once you have a call, right? And whatever way you get one, the most important call is the discovery call. It's the fit call. Is this something that we can do together or should I point you in another direction? It's all about, Hey, this is what we do. This is how we could potentially help in understanding and uncovering.

what the needs are of your prospect. I think it's the most important call in your business because it's more about qualifying people out of your potential services than qualifying people in for your services. And so if you have leakage later on in your funnel, right? Like you're getting, you're sending out all these proposals and people are falling off. Chances are you probably didn't ask the right question or create the right series of opportunity inside of the discovery call.

Mike (08:28.751)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen Steers (08:36.718)
So we can usually point failures later on in the process to something we didn't do earlier in the process. And that is usually the fit call. Yeah, it is.

Mike (08:36.847)
100%.

Mike (08:41.423)
Definitely. Qualification is everything. In my experience, and with my clients, the same thing, Stephen, is I also talk about qualification not on the discovery call. For me, it's when they get a formal RFP or a client brief, but qualifying that opportunity really hard, rigorously, is the best thing you can do to improve your conversion rate.

Stephen Steers (09:03.342)
Yes, a hundred percent it is. And so like, I like to play in that space because it shows a lot about the health of a business. So from one simple thing, like a half hour, 45 minute call, whatever it is, if I'm reviewing it, I can be like, well you need to get training here. These are things that don't sound like they're working well. And this is why this clientele is not converting. Let's update these parts and pieces and let's train your team on those things so that we can make that a thing of the past. Yeah.

Mike (09:29.071)
By the way, Stephen, you've either got a mouse in the room or your chair's quite squeaky.

Stephen Steers (09:33.934)
My chair, I'm gonna sit a little. I'm excited, I'm excited this morning. I'm gonna.

Mike (09:38.671)
Exactly! Which is a good thing, Stephen.

Stephen Steers (09:41.198)
Yes, I'm gonna sit a little bit. Hey, calm down mouse. There we go. We got it. Yeah, exactly. He's like, I can start a sales organization for fellow mice.

Mike (09:47.279)
The mouse is now listening.

Mike (09:54.191)
Exactly.

So carry on. So we're in this kind of discovery call. And so now we know why it's important. How do you, is there a framework? Let me tell you a bit of a problem that I have. So you can probably coach me on this call is that I've written down about 30 questions that I have as a discovery call process. I can guarantee you on every call I have, I probably only cover four or five of them, I suspect. But it's a bit random which four or five I cover.

Stephen Steers (10:08.174)
Yeah, let's do it.

Mike (10:26.927)
And the problem here is I'm not good, I've got a very short working memory. So I'm not good at holding in my head lots of questions and frameworks when I'm trying to build a relationship with someone on a call. So help me, what's the kind of, how do you approach it in a structured way so it's repeatable?

Stephen Steers (10:45.678)
Okay, can I give you the first place I would correct you? Okay, so you said, I'm not good at. Instead say, I'm working on getting better at. Because your brain will believe you, whatever you tell it about yourself. So again, that'll take some time to correct or fix whatever, but like speak it out loud, your brain's be like, yeah, I'm good at this. I'm working on getting better, I'm gonna improve. So the first thing I would say is, it's okay to not have a working memory of.

Mike (10:48.015)
Yes.

Mike (10:53.935)
Okay, that's a very good piece of coaching.

Stephen Steers (11:13.614)
30 to 50 questions, that's quite a lot to recall and then add value and have a conversation and build a relationship. Like that's quite a bit. Yeah, it'd be present most importantly, right? Like we're humans solving human problems in a business context. And if I can't translate that with you in a sales situation, you're not going to trust me and you're not going to do anything, right? You're not going to see the outcomes, but the mechanics of a good discovery call. So I created a method I call OCGC, which stands for opening, creating the gap and closing.

Mike (11:19.375)
Exactly. And be present.

Stephen Steers (11:42.926)
And I think there's a very distinct OCGC. Yep. Opening, creating the gap and closing. So the OCGC model is what I work off of. And what that does is it breaks a sales call into its nine key components of phases. So I think everything inside of a good solid discovery call builds on itself and allows you to make a compelling offer to ask someone to enroll or book a next call or whatever that thing is by creating the space for them to, as I like to say,

Mike (11:43.759)
So say that again. So sorry, say that once again.

Stephen Steers (12:11.758)
unlock urgency inside of their own mind. So one thing I hear a lot is you hear sales managers I've had in my career, they're like, man, you got to establish urgency, you got to make it urgent. And it's like, the longer I've been in the business, like you can't do that. You can only unlock it and they have to experience it themselves. And I think that comes from a series of questions. No, no, you cannot create it.

Mike (12:30.095)
You can't create it. Correct. Completely agree. You can't convince someone that they've got a problem that they haven't got.

Stephen Steers (12:40.75)
Correct. And if you're doing that, that's why people don't like salespeople, right? Like that's level one. And you know, that's going to keep me employed for a long time because there's lots of people who do it the wrong way. And so I want to put it out there in the right way and give people some game here. So the way I think about coaching through a discovery call, the first place, the first, first place, Mike, that I think people should spend time is doing some research. So 10 minutes, 15 minutes of just looking at what the company does. Like,

What are their ideal clients? What's the mission they have? Who are relevant roles that you may need to involve in future conversations inside of the business? What product do they sell? What is their potential ACV that you think they have for their products? What is a potential need that you can fill that you can pre -identify based on your own research? Are they hiring for certain roles? Where are they located? What rapport elements can you build with the people you talk with to show that you're human? You can do this in 10 minutes.

Also for those listening, if you were to put the categories inside of your CRM with these types of labels, your reps could do it, or you could hire someone outsourced to fill in that information for each of your potential meetings. So that's the first place I start there because when you get on the phone and you can ask very pointed questions that show like, like, you know, our CTO is from Bulgaria and does this, whatever it shows that you're willing to add value before there's a dollar exchanged.

And that's really important for psychologically trusting a person. It's like, you invested time in us. Like, okay, cool. So that's the first thing I call that the prologue prospect prologue start by doing some research with the prospect. The second thing I do and coach people through on a call is your most, one of your most important parts of any, any discovery call is laying out an agenda. So I'm pressed like some version, I say some version of this usually on a call, Hey Mike, it's great to be here with you today. I have a really light agenda for our call.

First, I wanna learn a little bit about you and what you're building. Then I wanna share a little bit about us, what we're up to. And if there are any synergies that we uncover based on our conversation today, and it's worth exploring more, we'll schedule some time to talk about what that looks like and what. Does that sound good? Okay, now, simple, but my favorite part about it, it's the future pacing contract they just agreed to. So I said, I wanna ask you, tell you about me, and then if there's something for us to work on that we uncover, we're gonna book in more time.

Mike (14:53.807)
Yeah, exactly. Nice and simple. Really simple.

Mike (15:10.383)
Yeah, exactly.

Stephen Steers (15:10.51)
talk about what that might look like. And everyone's gonna say yes, because it's the start of the call. So when you're towards the end, when you're really like, I wanna get another call here, let's move it forward, they've already agreed. And you could pre -reference the agreement that you've made. It's like, hey, you know what? You remember how we talked about at the beginning of the call, if there were some things we could work on together, turns out there are, here's what I recommend we do next. And it's just nicer and it doesn't feel like you're selling most importantly. It's not gross.

Mike (15:34.703)
Exactly.

Stephen Steers (15:37.486)
So after the agenda, I recommend people ask what I call the kryptonite question. So I'm going to, I'm dating myself here in so far as when I was coming up, we had to carry actual textbooks to school, like physical, heavy 70 pound things lug them around. And every once in a while we got fortunate where a teacher would say, it's an open book test today. You can bring your textbook and I would be like, I would hate to carry it, but it's like, I'm going to get a good grade today. You know, my average is going to be up, but.

Mike (15:49.775)
Yep, I remember that. Correct.

Stephen Steers (16:07.118)
The kryptonite question is basically the open book test of sales. And so that question, you know, I call it's called kryptonite because the one thing that could break Superman down is kryptonite, right? Like it just gives it makes him a normal guy. Same thing in sales. And the question is very simple. Some version of what made you get on the phone with us today or why is now the time to talk about X, whatever it is that you do. And by doing that, they're going to tell you exactly what the reason is, which is crazy because you can start to think of.

Other situations where you've helped people with similar problems, so you have things to reference. I always say that's a great place to drop a story. I wrote a book about storytelling because I thought it was really important that people use it in sales. But you can drop a story that shows parity about what their needs are. And then it also gives you the opportunity to reference what in your offer would resonate the most with the needs that they've outlined. And that's all within five minutes of getting on a potentially 30 minute call. So you've got a ton of value and everything can point back.

to the main, main issue that they've told you, which is really nice. So that concludes the opening side of the OCGC model for a discovery call.

Mike (17:15.887)
So Stephen, just on that, so I thought really good about the kind of the way you posed the question, you know, what made you get on a call today? What's your experience of and what kind of feedback do you get when you ask that question? Because, so I'm from the UK, so in the British culture, that can sound a bit too blunt. It's like, what made you get on the call? And it's like, well, I don't even know who you are, Mike, so I'm not sure I'm gonna answer that. Because we're very British and we're very...

Stephen Steers (17:31.502)
Mm -hmm.

Stephen Steers (17:35.918)
Okay.

Stephen Steers (17:44.622)
Cheeky.

Mike (17:45.326)
Yeah, exactly. It's a cheeky question. So what kind of response do you have? What have you heard? Because you've done this a lot with a lot of clients. Just tell people that are cynical, tell them what happens and why that works so well.

Stephen Steers (17:47.918)
Yeah.

Stephen Steers (17:53.406)
thousands of people.

Stephen Steers (18:01.998)
Yeah, a couple of things. So again, I want to stress anything we talk through as far as the framers is concerned. I'm not precious on using exact words necessarily. I think as long as you know, no, but as long as you understand the sentiment behind the question, phrase it however you like. So if it's. Yes, correct. Right. So if it's really cheeky, like, what made you get on the phone today, mate, and the people are going to take that little weird, you want to adjust it. But you could say the turn of phrase would maybe be like, so let's say you sell.

Mike (18:10.415)
No, no, no, no.

Mike (18:14.671)
Right, then you can culturally align it to where you live. Okay.

Stephen Steers (18:32.622)
client software. Let's just say, right? And so here's the other thing, because they booked a call with you, there is some level of interest. So you could do two, one of, no, I mean, I have nice hair, but it's not enough to keep you like wanting to stay on the phone with me. So the way I, of course, right? That's, it keeps me in margaritas and stuff, of course, absolutely. But the way I think about it is if,

Mike (18:38.671)
Yeah. Why would they waste their time otherwise? They wouldn't waste their time.

Yeah, as Beyonce recognized, yes.

Stephen Steers (19:00.654)
You can ask, listen, so compliance software, hey, what made you curious? Like, thanks for booking a call. Thanks for being with us today. Curious, what made today the time to talk more about compliance X or whatever outcome that you have? And then people could be like, well, this, that, the other. So that's a softer way. The other way to do it potentially is you could lead them. So like, let's say it is compliance software and you're like, hey, what made you get on the phone with us today? And if they're like, I'm not sure, usually people come to us when they have experience X.

Y or Z? Do any of those resonate with you? And they're gonna be like Z.

Mike (19:31.471)
Exactly. So Stephen, this is brilliant. So I was taught, wow, 25 years ago, a really simple, really simple phrase, which I still use now in an adapted form. When we were selling consulting services and we were having the initial discovery calls, what we were told based upon a lot of research that was done was this. They said, if you tell a client what their problems are,

they'll reject you in that first meeting because it's insulting. I can't possibly know what your problems are, Stephen. However, if I say, what we find with clients like you in your sector, in your current kind of situation are there are three core challenges they typically face. Let me describe those three. Do any of those resonate, Stephen? People typically go, yeah, number two.

Stephen Steers (20:27.662)
That's the one. Yep. Here's what we see. What I'm going to do today is walk you through some ways we think about it. You can give a case study, like a very quick quip about what that looks like, tell a story, and then be like, you're in the right place. Right? So the opening that we just covered is all about establishing, Hey, welcome to our business. It's great to be here with you today. Here's what you can expect from us. Is there anything else you'd want to see or anything else you want to go through? Cool. And then we can go in and do our bit, do what we're here to do in a shorter and more controlled environment that lowers.

Mike (20:39.791)
Exactly, you're in the right place.

Stephen Steers (20:57.39)
cortisol, it lowers sales resistance because if we set up the agenda for the call, they know exactly what to expect and they're going to agree to the expectations, which should make the rest of the call much smoother. So the other thing I think about too, so you remember when I went through the agenda is does that sound good? Does that work? We got their permission. I think permission based statements inside of sales calls as we transition between phases are excellent.

to keep people engaged because you're checking in. And then secondly, to just make sure they're not feeling a lot of pressure and you're just uncovering information. Say, hey, is it cool if I ask some questions about your business? Yeah, of course, go ahead. And then you have license, right? It's all about creating that space for each other.

Mike (21:42.255)
There's also something, Stephen, in your tone of voice, which is quite interesting, is that it's a non -threatening tone of voice. It's quite relaxed, it's not formal, but it's structured. So I feel like you're not gonna waste my time, but we're gonna have a conversation.

Stephen Steers (21:58.894)
That's been practice and I've been working on my late night DJ voice for years. Yeah, yes. Chris Voss, yeah. Definitely, and I got a good microphone so you can hear all the subtle bass that comes out, yeah.

Mike (22:02.799)
I was going to say the late night DJ voice by Chris Voss. Yeah, exactly.

Mike (22:10.575)
Exactly. Yeah, it's nice and slow. It's nice and calm. There's no problems here. We're just having a conversation. Yeah.

Stephen Steers (22:18.894)
I think also on that note too, again, I sit down and practice this stuff. So I don't want to make it come like it was like super 100 % natural. But coming back to it, people buy from people. And I think the right tenor in sales is to be me and you versus the problem. So I'm not sitting across the table from you. We're sitting at the same table looking at the same book and the problems in front of us. And if we choose to go on that path together, awesome.

Mike (22:45.217)
Correct.

Stephen Steers (22:48.014)
If not, no problem. But it's like, I'm not here to press you into doing anything that you don't need to do. It's let's identify what it is. If it's something for us to work on together, let's go for it. And I think that kind of voice tone and asking those questions and setting up the call makes it be like, yeah, come in here. Like, I'm not going to press you into anything. And it says it without saying it. Yes. We've done the O. Yes. And then we get into the creating the gap, which is the CG of OCGC.

Mike (23:05.807)
So we've done the O. So we've now done the O of your framework. Okay?

Stephen Steers (23:16.238)
So that is really simple too, and that contains three phases, right? To make it really, really easy. And the first is in some form or fashion, each of us has our discovery questions. So you mentioned you have like 30, you ask a few of them. I would bucket those into certain categories. And the first one is where do you want to go? What's the big idealized state of your business or otherwise? I say this very specifically as in where do you want to go? Because you want to understand the bigger and broader implications the business is looking for.

so you can attach your product or service to the big goal or goals that the company has. Remember, you're not just selling a widget, you're selling an outcome. There's a quote from, I think it's Theodore Levitt, I believe he was a marketing professor at Harvard. And he famously, yeah, he famously says, people don't want to buy a quarter inch drill, they want to buy a quarter inch hole. And sorry for the Imperial measurement reference. It's a little early, maybe it's a two millimeter, two mil, yeah, yeah.

Mike (23:58.351)
Yes, he will. Yeah.

Mike (24:06.159)
Cure that.

Mike (24:10.295)
Probably is two millimeters. It probably is two millimeters in Europe. Yeah, exactly.

Stephen Steers (24:14.734)
Yeah, but they want the outcome that whatever your product service widget helps them have, that's the thing they want to buy. They don't care what the vehicle is to get them there and you need to outline what the outcome is. So understand the big picture of where they want to go. Once you understand that, you know, we got them to this potentially higher emotional space because they're thinking about the idealized future. We then want to pull them back to reality with where are you now? And when we get them back to where are they now, like as in.

What's happening? What KPIs you're tracking? Who's involved? You wanted to get to 200, but how many do you have now? I'm at seven. We've now created a gap. And inside of that gap is where we can start to position our products or services in reference to the space that they want to fill or create with their business. So after we get a good picture of where they are now, this is kind of your generalized discovery questions that would be kind of on your script. I recommend like five to seven usually.

in this section that are really pertinent to what your model could create. And then finally, we want to ask them specifically what's in the way. Why don't you have that? Like, what have you tried so far and how long have you had these types of problems? And from there, we're going to start to be able to quantify how much that problem may be costing them, the cost of inaction, just from all these bits of information. And my favorite part about this, I learned from a guy, Tom Hopkins, who's an OG in the sales space. If you don't know him,

He's famous for selling a house a day at the age of about 26 in California. Yeah. 365 houses in one year in his twenties. Check him out. He's a beast. He's got tons of different scripts. He's like broken it down into, I think it's the art of selling is one of his books. Very good book. And Tom Hopkins, really good book. But one thing he says is if the prospect says it, it's true.

Mike (25:46.991)
day.

Mike (25:51.631)
Whoa.

Mike (26:00.783)
What's his name?

Stephen Steers (26:09.966)
Right? So we want to ask and create an unlock urgency by asking questions that get the prospect to give us the information we need to make a recommendation or a determination about where they are. We don't want to be pushing widgets or services or anything until we've got a clear understanding of, Hey, here's why I'm offering X. That's a really, really key distinction. And then you get people bought in on those types of things. So after we've done, yeah, go for it.

Mike (26:34.351)
So Stephen, where do you, so, okay, so we're in the middle bit, we're gonna close in the gap. We're gonna get to the scene in a second. Where do you bring, so one of the things I was taught in consultative selling was you've gotta add value in terms of insights. You've gotta try and bring something to the conversation that they either didn't know or suspected but weren't sure about or something really, really new that kind of knocks them off guard.

A, do you think that's a good idea? And B, if it is, where do you bring it in?

Stephen Steers (27:06.415)
Okay, great question. And I'm going to give you a consultant's answer and I'm going to say it depends. It depends. Yeah, it certainly depends. So for, in my two cents and the kind of the way I adjust the framework. So we just got done with the creating the gap. As soon as we create the gap, I then like to tell people to summarize the needs that they've uncovered.

Mike (27:09.967)
Excellent. It depends. It depends, exactly.

Stephen Steers (27:29.87)
So, hey, it sounds like you really want X, but Y is missing. It sounds like you've tried B and haven't been able to work. And it looks like your biggest goal is to get to here. Is that correct? And then we get them to say, yes, or did I miss anything? And they'll correct you. And the key part to that before we get into adding any value is they've agreed that this is the problems that they have. So there's a clear understanding that, hey, you've been listening. You understand my needs.

And from there, then we can start to add some value. So after we've got that summary, what I recommend people do is go through a case study. For example, how it would be, it would be like, you need those three things, blah, blah, blah. And you'd be like, Hey, so based on what you shared here, we've actually worked with a number of different companies in your same position. Can I walk you through one of the ways we've been able to help them achieve similar goals? And they'll say, yes. So that's where you can run through your case study and add value and mix up a little bit of secret sauce in there. I wouldn't say too much.

And the other reason I say it depends is some people are one call close. They do a 45 minute walkthrough. Some people are two call close. So I would say depending on which way you do it, you're going to want to then make a shift after you summarize needs. I typically recommend a two call close. It builds a little bit more trust and then give some people some, it gives you a chance to weed people out. And then you're not like trying to hustle them with getting something done today. I find that's a little pressurized in a lot of situations again, depending on your model.

But I'd like to share that value as in going through a potential case study that gets them to similar outcomes or results, and then asking them if that's something they want for their business, which solves the objection of, is this going to work for me? So I don't think, I think that I want to say this the right way, especially in consultative selling, especially for consultants. One of the problems people have is they turn their sales calls into consulting calls. So we want to be very careful.

Mike (29:20.367)
Stephen Steers (29:22.766)
about not just dropping all this extra, extra value. Again, put some in that's relevant if you can, but I would err on the side of less because now it becomes this free consulting call and it doesn't necessarily build you into being the person that can solve their problem because you're giving away too much. So I think by erring on the side of less, going through a case study and asking me if that's something they want to, then you can have them be interested enough in a second step where you can outline more of the situation and circumstance and then

to create a plan as some people might do on their second or strategy call.

Mike (29:56.943)
Okay, very good. Now, we're at the final C part.

Stephen Steers (30:02.286)
We are in the final C part, right? So that started with summarizing, right? Getting clear on what things are, telling that story around it. And then after that, we can then create our offer. We could share our offer, right? So after they said, hey, yes, those are my problems. We should share a case study. Hey, is that something you want to see it too? Great. We've smashed two different objections there. Is this going to, is there a fit for this? And is this going to work? We've already covered those two things. They agree that they're there. And now we walk through our offer.

and we share all of the value upfront. We say, hey, so based on what you said here, here's why I recommend this particular program or this particular situation. It's gonna help. You mentioned X was a big need. We built out this framework and this coaching methodology that's going to help you do X. When we've implemented it in companies like yours, it's increased conversion rates by as much as 25%. We do this, we include these tools and frameworks. We include scheduled office hours.

I'm going to give you four Jimi Hendrix original pressing records, whatever that package is, outline it and then ask them, does that sound like it would work for what your needs are? And then they're bought in on the offer and they say yes, or they say no, or here's what I'd like to see instead. And then once we've gotten to some parity there, then it all comes down to potentially talking through a price or whatever that looks like for your business. Now the next and probably.

Biggest place I see a lot of people mess up. I read this stat and it broke my heart actually. It says that 48 % of sales calls end without an attempt to close the sale.

Mike (31:38.543)
Yeah.

Stephen Steers (31:39.79)
Right. Which is just heartbreaking. And again, closing the sale could mean two things. It could mean like, Hey, give me your credit card number. Let's get started. Or it could mean like, Hey, let's book another step, whatever that is. Right. So 48%, that's almost half of calls that exist in sales are not moving towards any next step, which is mind boggling. And so the acronym I learned it under was

Mike (31:48.783)
book another meeting. Exactly. Correct.

Mike (31:59.439)
It is.

Especially, I mean, especially Stephen Given, it's rare to get a call with a prospect anyway. It's really hard to get to that point of, you know, it's real work. So to waste it a bit like the Glenn Garry leads from Glenn Garry, Glenn Ross, which is an amazing sales film. Yeah, amazing. Yeah. Exactly.

Stephen Steers (32:12.718)
work.

Stephen Steers (32:20.206)
Jack Lennon. Yeah, that's a great movie. Brass Balls. Yeah, that was a great movie.

Stephen Steers (32:29.422)
But I think the acronym I learned it under is called BAMFAM. So book a meeting from a meeting. If you're on a call with the prospect, I always tell anybody I work with, the only place you have any control in a sale is on the phone. Period. If they're on the phone with you, they are a live fish on and you should set every single bit of expectations you can while you have them on. Booking your next step while you're on the phone with the people assures at least that you have a next step. And here's the other way I use this.

Mike (32:54.351)
Definitely.

Stephen Steers (32:58.574)
Not only do I want to advance the sale and potentially close them and or open the door for them to work with up together with me. This is a place to qualify people out. This is another test. So if a person will not book a call, that means they are potentially not your ideal client because there's sure.

Mike (33:18.095)
Or the timing's not right. They haven't got a problem right now that you can solve.

Stephen Steers (33:24.718)
That can absolutely be the case too. And it's totally okay if they won't. But again, if they won't, then that potentially means they're not an idealized fit. So I learned this framework from a guy named Dean Jackson. I think he runs ilovemarketing .com. He's got a lot of gems, worth a newsletter subscribe for sure. And he has a framework he calls the five star client framework. And it goes like this. The first is a willingness to engage with you. The second is they're friendly and cooperative rather than challenging you at every turn.

The third is they know what they want or they might know what they don't want, which is kind of the same thing, but slightly different, two sides of the same coin. The fourth is they're ready to get it. So like right now is a potential thing that's on the table for them. Timing's right. And then the fifth one is a prospect wants your help rather than just anybody's help. So when I think about booking a call, that's a willingness to engage, right? They've demonstrated to like, hey, let's have a conversation. The second is.

Mike (34:06.479)
Exactly. Timing's right. Yeah.

Mike (34:12.783)
Exactly.

Stephen Steers (34:21.582)
if they're friendly and cooperative, they're going to follow our process. They're going to follow our recommendations. And so if someone doesn't want to book a call, doesn't mean they're not necessarily a serious candidate, but they're not a candidate that you should as seriously pursue and send as much follow up versus someone who's like, yep, I'm ready to book a call. So if they booked it, they've allocated calendar space, which means they've allocated brain space to potentially solving the problem. That's another test to see how serious people are inside of your funnel so that you can potentially expedite a.

closing situation inside of a cell.

Mike (34:55.119)
And in 30 minutes, Stephen, you've outlined the framework.

Stephen Steers (34:58.126)
There it is, that's it. And I can even add more value. If people want a call script template, I will give them one. I'll talk about that at the end, but you can have one.

Mike (34:59.887)
And it's.

Mike (35:04.463)
Yep. Perfect. So let's just kind of summarize kind of where we've got to about discovery calls. So you've got a framework which you've talked through, which was the OCGC framework. Just again, tell us which is the, what the acronyms stand for.

Stephen Steers (35:19.79)
Yes, indeed.

Stephen Steers (35:24.046)
The acronym stands for opening, creating the gap and closing.

Mike (35:27.503)
Brilliant. So anyone can remember that. So it's a very simple three -step process. You've given us some detail within each step about how to ask the right questions and set the right agenda for the meeting. And you've helped people understand a bit more, I think, about if they don't commit to the next meeting, then they're just not the right fit for all sorts of reasons. Could be timing, could be the solution that you provide doesn't meet their problem.

Stephen Steers (35:39.726)
Mm -hmm.

Mike (35:55.503)
It could be a credibility thing, it could be all sorts, but it's just not the right fit and that's okay. And then you can move on to either following up with them in three months time or finding another person that is the right fit, that does have the right timing. Brilliant. So what would be your last piece of advice to a listener who's thinking, okay, I've been doing it wrong. I need to follow this new framework. What's the thing you would say about how they start?

Stephen Steers (36:00.686)
It's okay.

Stephen Steers (36:11.246)
Exactly. Simple.

Stephen Steers (36:26.382)
The first thing I would do more than anything else is record your next call. Record your next call. Listen back to it or even feel free to send me one. I'll review it for you and just tell you where there's some room for improvement. Again, no obligations whatsoever. I just think this stuff needs to be in the world. Like it shouldn't feel, I shouldn't feel scared to get on the phone with you. It should just be like, Hey, I want to help you understand this. Like, and if there's something for us to work on, like make it easy for me to want to work with you and not feel pressured to do so. And.

Mike (36:39.055)
Genius.

Mike (36:46.735)
Exactly. Correct. Yeah.

Stephen Steers (36:56.302)
Like I'm a salesperson, everybody here is a salesperson really, but when it doesn't feel gross, I'm much more inclined to be like, yeah, cool, I like this, you're making sense for me. And that's what I want to help sales become again.

Mike (37:07.087)
Exactly.

Brilliant. And what was the, you said there was a guide that you might be able to give people as well. What was that?

Stephen Steers (37:14.862)
Yes, so if you go to stevensteers .com. I have a litany of resources on there for you, which will include, but not limited to, a pre -meeting research guide. Remember, we started the whole framework with what questions should you be asking yourself before you get on the phone? I'll have a template there for you to use or install in your CRM. I will also have a call script template that breaks down this a little bit more detail with some example questions. Take it, update your script and use it.

Mike (37:30.511)
We did.

Stephen Steers (37:44.494)
If you have a question or comment on it, I'm always here for that. And then thirdly, if you want, I'm dead serious. If you want to send me one of your B2B sales calls to review and work through my framework, which is more detailed than what we went over, it has like specific pieces and parts. I'm happy to review one for you for free and to share what you could potentially do for improvement inside of your B2B organization. So get all that info and more how to write a book. I just wrote a book. Here's a framework, everything. I've put all my resources there for you. So grab whatever you think feels and fits with what you need.

and feel free to ask questions.

Mike (38:16.175)
Brilliant. Stephen, where can people find out? Basically, you've given them where you can find out more about you. How do they contact you? What's the best way?

Stephen Steers (38:23.182)
I'm on LinkedIn all the time, every day, and feel free to connect and say hi. Steven Steers, big hair in effort to get you bigger profits.

Mike (38:33.519)
What a great way to end, Stephen. It's been amazing. Thank you ever so much for joining me.

Stephen Steers (38:37.614)
Thank you for having me, Mike. It's been a pleasure.

Mike (38:40.111)
Brilliant. Okay, I'll stop the recording. Let's just check that the record...