Designing a Smarter Outbound Strategy with Alice Dawlat

[00:00:00] Alice: We come with a proposition, we have conversations with the client, we adjust and there's a lot of back and forth that happen so that sometime it's harder to have it on paper. It's like a feeling conversation, explaining to the team that it was not just like one presentation and we sign. It was like back and forth.
That put the client already in a different mindset and, and so the team needs also to understand that, and that's. That's hard. I think in general,
[00:00:28] Mike: my name's Mike Lambda and you are listening to Hile, the B2B Sales Club podcast, where we bring you actionable insights about sales, RFPs, negotiations, and difficult procurement discussions from sales leaders.
Ground leaders and procurement leaders, please subscribe to get updates when new episodes are released.
Alice, thanks Everman for joining me on Higg all the B2B Sales Club podcast. Great to have you as a guest.
[00:00:57] Alice: Thank you for having me.
[00:00:59] Mike: That's real pleasure. And you are currently in where? In the world?
[00:01:03] Alice: In Montreal where it's pretty, pretty cold.
[00:01:06] Mike: I bet. We think it's cold here in the uk. Mm-hmm. Nothing like the cold that you have.
Nothing like temperature, roughly where you are.
[00:01:15] Alice: So in Sarius it's like, uh, feels like, uh, minus 25 or something like that. It's been a, a week or 10 days like that. It's painful right now. Very painful. I would like to
[00:01:24] Mike: reach, I bet. Stay inside. Exactly. Yes. So without further ado, Alice, introduce yourself. Who are you?
What do you do? Who do you work for, and then your favorite song and why?
[00:01:36] Alice: So my name is, uh, Alice. I've been working for the same agency for the last nine years, who's called LG two. LG two is traditional agency in advertisement based in Montreal with an office in Quebec and in Toronto. And lately, actually last year we, uh, we did a major shift in our company.
And we created a group with business unit. I am inside the, uh, digital group. So for the last nine years I've been working in digital and it was hard for the digital group to actually be credible on the market and competitive with other digital agency. So we created a brand and a name for that group. So now I'm working for Ref Digital, which is his own agency, completely owned by LG two, but like a little sister of, uh, LG two.
[00:02:25] Mike: Perfect.
[00:02:26] Alice: Yes.
[00:02:26] Mike: Favorite song?
[00:02:27] Alice: Favorite song? Well, I don't know if it's a song, but you know, as you mentioned, many times song is related to memories and right now it is The best memory that I, I am hoping I'm gonna keep all my life is all the singing and dancing I'm doing with my son, who's seven years old on singing in the Rain.
Ah. Singing in the
[00:02:45] Mike: Rain.
[00:02:46] Alice: Oh, amazing. And I've been watching that when I was a kid. And, uh, yeah. And, uh, I show him to him like two months ago and we, we sing and dance along, especially, uh, the song, uh, make, make Them Laugh where he, anyway, so it's not a song, it's a full musical. No, that's a
[00:03:03] Mike: brilliant memory.
[00:03:04] Alice: All of them are amazing.
[00:03:05] Mike: Yeah, because it's amazing that, and it's a connection with your son. Yeah. And you'll never, and he'll never forget that either.
[00:03:11] Alice: No. I hope, I hope it's gonna be like,
[00:03:13] Mike: no,
[00:03:13] Alice: he won't. Like a, a strong core memory like he was when I was a kid.
[00:03:16] Mike: Yeah. It's not possible to forget that. So that's brilliant.
That's really, really good. So let's jump into the questions.
[00:03:23] Alice: Yes.
[00:03:23] Mike: So the first question is, your story is slightly unusual, I think, in terms of your route into business development. So how have you transitioned from project management, account director role? Into a kind of full-time business development role.
What was the backstory?
[00:03:39] Alice: Thank you for thinking, uh, thinking that I, I don't think it's unusual, but, uh,
[00:03:44] Mike: yeah, yeah.
[00:03:44] Alice: Yeah. So I started as a project manager. I started in, uh, different industry, actually, events magazine, but really develop personalization and a love for digital. 13 years ago, something like that.
Mm-hmm. And I love project management. I'm really good with, uh, clients dealing with timeline, budget. I'm very organized. My brain is a bit like I see the world like a puzzle. I like, yes, I like one piece at a time. It's, it's really something like, you know, when when we need to pack the car, I want to handle, like putting the luggage in the truck.
Like I know how it. Feet perfectly. Yeah, makes sense. Um, so I, I just like went step after step in my, in my company and four years or five years ago, I, I became a, a account director. So more high level client relationship, having a team of project manager that I, I was also training. And the story really is that, first of all, when you're an account director, you start doing a bit more business development, upsell you a bit more selling involved,
[00:04:46] Mike: upsell.
Yeah,
[00:04:47] Alice: exactly. You're a bit more involved into that. I've been given a mission to find someone who do project management and also do a bit of this dev development in one of our office. So Right. She would be under me, but she would be working for another office. And when we hired her and she started working, I realized all the opportunities she was given at that office and I didn't see all those opportunities in my office and I thought it was strange.
Yeah. And so I kind of call my, my boss and I say. I think there's more here that I, we don't see, like I would like to see everything that comes in and that kind of started, I don't know, a little snowball because we realized information was not circulating as well, and there were no really point of contact who was doing that.
So I think information was just like, you know, we didn't know where to send that information. So certainly by asking for that. Yeah, position that job. I got a lot of opportunities and I, we build a little team to answer all those opportunities because I'm not an expert. I need, I need my team, my creative expert.
Exactly. My technical, uh, experts. And so I, I did that for two, three years at the same time of my account director job. And I really, really loved, it's. It's, I don't know. It's so much fun to, uh, to talk with new client, new people, trying to understand the, the challenges, the goals, how they would like to grow.
It's, I don't know, it's, I love that. And when ref digital become a thing, I realized, uh, that. I couldn't do both job at the same time. And also we had a mission for Rev Digital that we had to grow out of just growing by opportunities, but growing with outbound strategy.
[00:06:35] Mike: So we actually share something as we've been discussing.
And I hadn't, yeah, I hadn't kind of connected the dots, but it was, now I think about it, it's fairly obvious. I spent 25 years as a project manager.
[00:06:47] Alice: Okay.
[00:06:48] Mike: 20, 25 years and then kind of 10, kind of 15 years in a much more commercial role.
[00:06:55] Alice: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:56] Mike: So the question I was gonna ask you was, but it made me think about myself as well, was in project and program management, it's very.
Disciplined. Lots of structure, lots of timelines. As you said before, when packing the car, you know exactly how it fits together. It's a puzzle. Whereas in business development, it's much more of a windy road. Many more paths you could take. You're not quite sure what the outcome's gonna look like when you get to the end of a path.
Is it a dead end or is it a, uh, a new opportunity? How do you deal with that psychologically?
[00:07:32] Alice: Such a good question. Such a good question because that was one of my, I think that's the most, the the biggest curve ball I had. Yeah. Moving to that job because yes, you had to handle a bit more uncertainty of the project
[00:07:49] Mike: ambiguity.
[00:07:50] Alice: Ex ambiguity. Exactly. And I'm a very practical person, so I needed to bring things to like a, a very concrete scenario. And sometime it was not playing on in my favor because would be like really like the project manager to those clients who are not our client yet. And I would, I would scare them because I would say, I would say like, so, but we,
[00:08:11] Mike: we've agreed there's an opportunity.
We know what the scope is and we just need to now sign the contract. It'll all be fine. And they go, Ooh, may, maybe not
[00:08:19] Alice: exactly, maybe not. So I, I needed to like, put uh, like a, put a bit of, uh, water in my wine, wine in my water,
[00:08:26] Mike: yes.
[00:08:26] Alice: And, and calming down and be more, more persuasive and less into details. Like a bit more like, here, what we're gonna realize altogether.
Here's the, the talent that's gonna be working on your project. Here's the experience we have that. You know, show you that we can make that happen and not already looking into like every little details where it's too, too much for them anyway at that point of the, of the project.
[00:08:52] Mike: Exactly. So learning to accept more ambiguity.
[00:08:56] Alice: Yeah.
[00:08:56] Mike: And understanding how to negotiate
[00:08:58] Alice: Exactly.
[00:08:59] Mike: And how to lock things in and leave other things flexible. And go on more of a journey.
[00:09:05] Alice: Yeah, and it's a change because when we sign a a client, then after you know, this project I'm handling to the team and I see the shift between the conversation I had with the client and what the team needs now to do, and I know exactly what they have to do.
So I try to, it's, yeah,
[00:09:22] Mike: so another great point. I have a firm belief and have done for many, many years. Projects go wrong at the interface. When there's a handoff between one party and another, that's when the problems occur. As, as we both know as project managers, that's where the problems are. I think the fact that you've been in the project management role and now you're in the business development growth role, when you hand over to delivery, I suspect the brief is pretty good.
'cause you know what it feels like?
[00:09:52] Alice: Yes. I, I'm trying to have the, the best brief as possible. That's true. That sometimes between the, you know, the moments I had conversation with the client, put on the contract and actually when you come into delivery like months past sometimes. So
[00:10:04] Mike: yeah,
[00:10:05] Alice: you need to, even if you took notes and everything, you need to go back into, uh, into that.
So, yes, I, I'm trying to be as accurate as possible and explain the process that we went in with the clients. Mm-hmm. Create that contract and 'cause that's also when you know, you talk about negotiation, we come with a proposition, we have conversations with the client, we adjust and there's a lot of back and forth that happened so that sometime it's harder to have it on paper.
It's like a feeling conversation, explaining to the team that it was not just like one presentation and we signed. It was like back and forth. That put the client already in a different mindset. And, and so the team needs also to understand that. And that's, that's hard. I think in general it's, but yes, it have a, a, a team of, um, I have a, um, a directory of the Stu studio directory that like put a, a place a lot of processes and, uh, help us also organize this, uh, transition.
Uh.
[00:11:01] Mike: Exactly, and I think, you know, one of the things I learned many, many years ago about that transition, bringing the project manager into the discussions, into the sales discussion at the right moment way before you've signed the contract, becomes really important. Yeah. Because it gives the client confidence that the sales person's going to move on.
They'll be in touch still, but they won't be delivering. But this project manager I've got is going to deliver what I need. When I need it, and that's gonna become, do I trust that person? And then the transition becomes much easier.
[00:11:33] Alice: Mm-hmm. That would be, uh, ideal If, uh, we were certain that the client will sign, we'll be Yeah.
Certain to, you know, assign someone, but it's hard to know who's gonna handle the project in advance. It is. So, yeah.
[00:11:46] Mike: But I think where we can, my lesson learned was wherever I can bring in the delivery lead. As soon as possible. Once we're at the stage of there's something here and saying to the client, okay, look, Jay may not be available if this gets delayed by six months.
Mm-hmm. But if we can move towards contracts and execute in a reasonable timeframe. Then Jane will be your delivery lead. And I think clients will say, that's perfectly reasonable.
[00:12:13] Alice: I think you're right.
[00:12:14] Mike: Next question, next thought, next topic. The shift you are making as an agency from being primarily kind of inbound focused, and we can discuss what that means in a second in its broader context to putting more emphasis on the outbound prospecting.
Including challenges and steps involved in that transition. So just talk about, 'cause this is a very common theme is that agencies rely upon inbound for quite a while and referrals, I would say is a kind of inbound, kind of to much more outbound about you are trying to generate conversations with new people that you don't know.
Yes, a referral will definitely, definitely, definitely help that massively. But relying purely on referrals would be, could be very risky. So what have you learned about that shift, about how you find new opportunities? And there isn't an answer. It's what have you learned in the journey?
[00:13:09] Alice: So I think that was, that was such an interesting transition.
And we all learn the, the group at large, so LG two is independent agency, the biggest agency in Canada. We are very proud of that and we belongs to stakeholders and you know, all the, uh. Partners of the company, they do a lot of networking and the opportunities of business development come from. Mostly that networking they're doing.
Yeah. But obviously when you grow up opportunities, you don't really specialize in anything. You just, you know, do the project that comes, uh, into your hand. And with ref digital, what we are trying to, uh, to do is really grow into the retail industry.
[00:13:57] Mike: So you've picked a niche. You've picked a niche.
[00:13:59] Alice: Exactly, exactly.
[00:14:01] Mike: And you are going to qualify out things that don't fit that niche. Is where you are in the journey.
[00:14:06] Alice: Yes. We're still gonna, you know, do a lot of project that uh, we used to do and we good at because yeah. Uh, we just have that portfolio and those opportunities and, you know, we are not yet
[00:14:17] Mike: And those
[00:14:18] Alice: skills ready to Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:20] Mike: But you are pointing yourself in a, in a new kind of direction. You are saying, was it retail?
[00:14:25] Alice: Exactly.
[00:14:26] Mike: Retail's gonna become your kind of sector focus. A lot of agencies go through this. Mature, they develop, they then go, as Blair end says, you know, you, you need to focus. You need to have a niche. You said that for years.
So you focus in on a niche which is normally a cross air of a sector with some kind of capability, a specialization. Whatever that might be. It might be ux, ui, it could be digital build, it could be all sorts of things. In your case it's probably advertising. Is it? So it's,
[00:14:59] Alice: well, so that's, that's the thing.
LG two who's an advertising agency already have a lot of, uh, company clients in retails. Maybe I didn't, uh, tell that at the beginning, but Ref digital, what we do is that we do website loyalty application. Application for other industry or either purpose. We do, uh, e-commerce and, uh, immersive, uh, experiences.
And what we are really specialized is, is brand digital experience, how we make our your brand live on web. And we're really good at that. Like we don't want, we don't want to for your website to look like everyone else. Yeah. We want to retake your brand essence, your identity, your brand identity, and show that on the website or on the digital experience, we're gonna be all together.
[00:15:46] Mike: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:15:47] Alice: So because LG two already have clients in retails, we don't feel that we are far from that, uh, specialization. The only thing is that because it's more for advertisement, the contact that we have might not be the key key decision maker for the digital project.
[00:16:03] Mike: Yeah.
[00:16:04] Alice: And we realize it's really hard to, to reach out, uh, to the, the, the, the people in charge of the digital project at the client, and we cannot go through our regular point of contact.
[00:16:15] Mike: So, for example, it may be very simplistically, L two had a relationship with the head of media for a big retailer in Canada, and that's great for media and for running paid campaigns. But the head of digital runs all the digital footprint for the retailer and you don't necessarily have a great relationship with them.
And maybe the paid media head inside, that retailer doesn't particularly want to introduce you to the head of digital for all sorts of reasons. So now it's like, well, how do you get access to the head of digital, inside of retailer with no previous relationship or connection?
[00:16:53] Alice: Exactly, and we have to remember that RG two is not really known for digital first.
So yeah, this is where Ref Digital come into place. This is a company that's gonna be specialized in digital, and that's our goal, is how to grow our, our name, and grow our, our credibility in that field
[00:17:14] Mike: in digital retail, e-commerce. So you've now picked across her digital retail e-commerce.
[00:17:21] Alice: Yeah, exactly.
And it can be retail, it don't have to be e-commerce necessarily, but all the, the, the retail industry. So that first realization of like, okay, we have to develop this outbound strategy. Really? 'cause you need
[00:17:34] Mike: new relationships because you don't have any existing relationships.
[00:17:36] Alice: Exactly.
[00:17:37] Mike: So what do you do?
What happened?
[00:17:39] Alice: And first of all, we have to understand who are we talking to? Yeah. So who are those people? Where are they, where do they mingle? Where do, how we reach out to them? Yeah. And so that was, that was a also a, a fun shift because there's a lot of events. Retailers are, I mean, overwhelmed of, you know.
[00:17:59] Mike: Absolutely.
[00:17:59] Alice: Proposition invitation. Everyone wants. Everyone
[00:18:02] Mike: wants to meet them.
[00:18:03] Alice: Exactly.
[00:18:03] Mike: Everyone wants to meet. They had a digital for a big retailer.
[00:18:06] Alice: Exactly. And I'm sure, I'm sure they have, like, I'm sure it has to be overwhelming for them. So there's a couple of event that happened in Montreal and. Other place in Canada, in the state as well.
But we started in Montreal and I was able to reach out to a lot of those people who was going to this event and make contact just on LinkedIn, reach out, say hi, say I see you going to that event. I will be there. I will love to meet. And that created a first link. And some people I met at those events.
[00:18:34] Mike: Someone else held an event. You found out they were going
[00:18:37] Alice: Exactly.
[00:18:38] Mike: And then you said, I'll be there as well. It would be great just to have a coffee, have a conversation.
[00:18:42] Alice: Exactly.
[00:18:43] Mike: How did that work? What was your response rate like on LinkedIn?
[00:18:47] Alice: Very well, surprisingly, very well.
[00:18:50] Mike: Do you know what the, the kind of the, the hook was, the interest.
[00:18:54] Alice: So I'm guessing that first of all, it was a personal me message. It was really, Hey, name of the person, I will be there. And I think it sounded in the email. The second is that people go to those events to network and to meet people. And sometimes they go alone. They don't go with a team. And it can be a bit, uh, scary to say, oh, okay, I'm gonna go to this event.
I want to go to the conference. Are are great. Yeah. But I'm a bit. You know, scared to go on my own. So someone reach out to you and say, I'm gonna be there. Let's meet. Here's my face, here's my name, here's what I do. Yeah. I dunno. It feels like, okay, I know that, that I know one
[00:19:29] Mike: person talk to No, I've got something arranged.
Exactly. I've got someone to talk to.
[00:19:32] Alice: Exactly.
[00:19:33] Mike: It's a very simple but
[00:19:34] Alice: yeah,
[00:19:35] Mike: creative strategy. It's like, yeah, find out if someone's going to a conference that's a known conference, and then say, let's have a coffee. Where's the harm in that? You're there anyway and you've got time to spare.
[00:19:48] Alice: Exactly.
[00:19:49] Mike: We used to, very similar.
When I was a partner in a consulting firm, what we realized was actually sponsoring the event isn't that valuable. What's really valuable is getting a dinner with 10 chief procurement officers, finance directors, who were already in town and could go to the evening drinks for the conference. Or they could come and see us at a nice restaurant, have a conversation with their peers in a more intimate environment with 12 people.
That was a much better way we found of building relationships.
[00:20:23] Alice: You are absolutely right, and this is really part of our strategy. So a lot of what happens is that when there's an event somewhere, so we, uh, we try to, to grow in Quebec, in Canada, but mostly in the state because of course, just by the density of populations is more business there than anywhere else, of course.
And so close, I mean, yep. Very across the border. Exactly. So there's a lot of events that we go to and what we try to do is to organize exactly what you just say, a dinner, something prior, during, after, where we can invite, uh, clients. And funny thing is that sometimes right now this is what we do. I hope that in five years it's gonna be different.
But we invite Quebec, so because they are, you know, traveling to another place. That's right. And it's easier to reach out to them when they're actually outside of the country that when they hear
[00:21:18] Mike: it is
[00:21:19] Alice: in Quebec and we say like, Hey, can we have a coffee? It's like, uh, too busy. But when they're outside of the country, again, they, they have to make, meet all options.
Exactly.
[00:21:28] Mike: Yeah. And it's also culturally aligned as well. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
[00:21:32] Alice: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[00:21:33] Mike: So I think that common theme that definitely works, takes effort. 'cause you've got a. Find out if they're going, find the right people, work out what the ICP is, contact them, get lots of rejections, get some people that say yes, book it, new diary, do all that.
What else has worked? So that's definitely a theme that I would recommend anyone tries to be quite frank, it's a very good way of meeting new people that are relevant to you. What else have you tried that's worked or not worked?
[00:22:01] Alice: So the um, other thing we tried, who was. I think a great success. We plan an event in our office a few weeks after that first event.
I went and I contact a lot of people. We put on an event in our office on a subject that really, you know, it's appealing for the retailers.
[00:22:21] Mike: Ah, now then, so when you thought about that event. So I've done a few of these. Some have worked. Most haven't. And you invite people?
[00:22:31] Alice: Yeah.
[00:22:31] Mike: Did you have a, a draw? Did you have like a name?
Someone from the industry? Because people, if it was me, I'd be like, Alice has invited me to an event. Hmm. Who's speaking? Alice is speaking. Okay. I get along well, Alex, Alice has got a point of view, but I'm busy. But if it's the head of digital for the biggest retailer in Canada. I'll go to that because I want to hear what he or she has got to say.
[00:22:59] Alice: So you are completely right once again. So what we did is that we, uh, we had a panel, so we were able to, uh, to bring three people who really had something to say and, uh, who's relevant in the, uh, industry, someone from the retail industry. So it's always helpful to, you know, uh. Know that someone on the stage that share their the the same struggle.
Exactly. And same thoughts is gonna speak. We had someone, an expert in e-commerce who actually is very known. She did a lot of speaks before, so you know, people I'm sure like was like, okay, we. We know this person. We comfortable, yeah, we, and then another expert in, uh, AI because obviously the subject was about, uh, e-commerce and AI, who also, uh, published a book and everything.
So yes, that definitely the subject, the panelist was one of the strong thing of brilliant the event and enough that we did it like a week before Black Friday and we, we had a good outcome for, for that period. Wow. Even if, obviously a lot of people also cancel. Mentioning that a week prior, black Friday, it was hard for them to, to be there, but it was pretty good.
We invited like, I think it was 120 invitation, we sent same thing again, personalized. I sent them by email, by LinkedIn. You know, obviously I was not the only one who sent invitation. We all did. It was all personalized.
[00:24:20] Mike: And when we say personalized Dallas, just to just check, I've got a bit of. Bug bear, a hobby horse that I kind of talk about, which is I can't bear AI personalization at scale to give AI 120 names and say, go and look at the website, see what they've said online, personalize it, hit send, and humans don't have to touch it, I think is nonsense.
I think what you are talking about is you do the research, maybe use AI to help the research, but you are personalizing it. To them, it's written by you with some help from a generative AI tool, but it is from you and you are the person writing the email effectively.
[00:25:01] Alice: Definitely. And sometime you, it's linked about like just, it doesn't have to be necessarily a lot of research on them.
It's can be just like, Hey, we missed each other at the event. Hey, I was happy to see you at the event. Just a little sentence that make that email just really connected
[00:25:16] Mike: and a
[00:25:16] Alice: human
[00:25:17] Mike: connection.
[00:25:17] Alice: Exactly. I was
[00:25:18] Mike: at the event and didn't see you. I genuinely was at the event and I genuinely didn't see you.
[00:25:23] Alice: Exactly. And then it can be something else. It could be, uh, like this is the subject that every retailers talk about it and we are doing a speak, an event about it. So what I mean about personalized is not emailing like with a template or, you know, like
[00:25:38] Mike: no.
[00:25:39] Alice: Something that is written,
[00:25:40] Mike: putting in the effort.
[00:25:41] Alice: Yeah, exactly.
[00:25:43] Mike: Finding something that will resonate. Like it might be that Oh yeah. You know, one of our board directors, they're not attending, but I know that you know them. I thought I'd reach out. You know, Jane says hi. Some kind of human connection.
[00:25:58] Alice: Exactly.
[00:25:59] Mike: And off 120, what kind of, like, how, what attendance rate did you get?
[00:26:02] Alice: So we had like, uh, 50 confirmed and 25 showed up.
[00:26:07] Mike: That's good.
[00:26:07] Alice: But on the 25, it's all, I'm gonna say it very like it's all net new. I mean, none of them are a client of us or even almost none of them. We talked to.
[00:26:17] Mike: Now talk to me about follow up. So I spoke to someone about this the other week, the follow up.
You've got 25.
[00:26:25] Alice: Yep.
[00:26:25] Mike: Golden leads, not leads. Golden connections that one day may have a project, they're just connections.
[00:26:32] Alice: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:33] Mike: But if you don't follow up. It's all for nothing.
[00:26:37] Alice: Yes, you are right. And this is where, you know, just a reminder, I've been in that job for like two minutes and a half. Yeah.
Compared to some of the people you have on your podcast. So yes, I know the follow up is very important. And at the same time, I don't want to be the person who's gonna add some overwhelm to the retailers. I want to be pertinent, like I want to bring something. The next time I'm gonna speak to you, I want that it's gonna be, uh,
[00:27:03] Mike: relevant, interesting,
[00:27:04] Alice: relevant.
So we had a few conversations. So what happened is that I spread during the event, I spread my team and I say like, uh, you talked to this person, you talked to this person. Yeah. Like I wanted to. That's what we should do. Absolutely. Exactly. So at the end, the event
[00:27:16] Mike: report back, did you talk to them?
[00:27:18] Alice: Exactly.
[00:27:18] Mike: What did they say?
[00:27:19] Alice: I have a spreadsheet with, I have a spreadsheet with like, this
[00:27:22] Mike: is the organization bit, this is the structure bit. Very good.
[00:27:26] Alice: And so everyone put the comment, I thought this is person maybe, uh, interest for this and this and everyone. And so I could see like. Like, for example, was someone, there was someone who was marked like show up to the event, but no one talked to them.
And I was like, oh my God. So I sent a, a message to the person. I'm like, I'm sorry, I realized no one talked to you. Brilliant. And actually it was a mistake. He was marked as, uh, present, but he didn't, he was not there. So we had his election on LinkedIn. But anyway, that's fine because that's all already, but it's
[00:27:55] Mike: fun.
Yeah,
[00:27:56] Alice: exactly.
[00:27:56] Mike: We thought you were there. You weren't there. Oh, that's a problem with our system. I'm really sorry. That's okay. What happened,
[00:28:02] Alice: ex, exactly.
[00:28:03] Mike: And then you start a conversation.
[00:28:05] Alice: Exactly. So we did a follow up. So the people who we thought could be, uh, worse contacting again, we did. And then after for the others, except obviously thank you email that was sent, I decided to wait.
So this event was in November and I knew we were going to do some. In March. So I was like, you know what, it's the holidays. It's, uh, all the Boxing Day is January. I'm not gonna overwhelm them and with messages, I'm gonna, I'm gonna wait. So I'm, I'm gonna reach out to them very soon to invite them to an event.
That's, again, it's not an event we are doing, but we're gonna do, we're gonna speak at that event, so make sure they come. And there's a few, I'm very happy because there's a few people I contacted saying like, Hey, you were supposed to come but you didn't. Uh, are you interested of taking a coffee? So. That working.
So I can do that with a few people. And I had one person who contacted us for a mandate. Wow. Even if this person didn't show up, he didn't come. It's funny, I never, I didn't even met him, met him at the event. He just contacted and said like, Hey, something that you guys do like, yes, we do that. So, wow. That's, it's a first.
It's the beginning. It's kind of like you feel that what you're doing, it's working, that you're not completely off. I'm always very, uh, impatient and very ambitious, so I'm always expecting more about everything that I do, but I'm trying to, good thing my boss, my boss tell me like, calm down. That was a success.
We had a great, you know, we had a good, uh, tendency, patience. Exactly.
[00:29:34] Mike: Patience and tenacity. We know now from the, uh, the research, it's between nine and 18 months now. Yes. For most of the bigger opportunities. To come to fruition and then for us to be able to bid for it. So that's a nine to 18 month gestation period where you've got to remain relevant and have something meaningful to say and not irritate them, but keep in touch.
And we also know that there's up to 11 stakeholders involved in any one big decision. So someone's gonna spend half a million dollars on digital as a retailer. Then there's probably up to 11 people involved in that decision. So you're also not just contacting the head of digital, but then you're gonna work out, well, who else might be involved?
The finance director and the head of media and the all sorts of people, you know, IT security infrastructure, and so it goes on. Exactly. And so you keep on building the relationships.
[00:30:26] Alice: Exactly. It's a never ending job, which is what
[00:30:30] Mike: fun. It's a never ending job. Exactly. So Alice, just to close this off, yes.
Two things. One quick question, just literally kind of top of your mind, characteristics and mindset required for leading the growth agenda. What do you think are the kind of characteristics and the mindset?
[00:30:46] Alice: So I'm sure that any kind of, uh, personality can, can, can do it. I'm sure there's like every kind of of people out there who can do a bd.
If I take my who I am, it's gonna be like a bit crazy. I have to say that I'm, um, I'm not afraid. I can be very stressed. I can have a lot of pressure. If I've been, I'm getting told to do something, I will. Find all the courage to, to do it. Just at the beginning of the year, I was sent to an event on my own in New York.
I was supposed to go with my boss and in the end it was just me. And I was like, okay, so I'm gonna have to go to different events, stand there alone, try to talk to people, and in the end I had so great conversation, so
[00:31:29] Mike: brilliant.
[00:31:29] Alice: It's worth it. But you, you need to, to be willing to do that, not to be afraid.
People, person. So like, uh, I can Striking a conversation. Exactly. And no ego, like, uh, if someone say, say no to you or don't want to talk to you anymore, or like, uh, you have to be against, that's okay. Let's, let's move on. Exactly. And that's pretty, pretty, that a bit, a bit crazy, not afraid. And, uh, a people person.
And then obviously all the skills that might require strategy, organization, uh, writing. A lot of other thing, but, uh,
[00:32:02] Mike: but those are the first
[00:32:03] Alice: of all. Yeah.
[00:32:04] Mike: I think I'd add one from your discussion that, that you've, I think, outlined throughout as a thread, which is tenacity. You have to keep going. You have to just keep going.
[00:32:17] Alice: That's true. You're very right. Resilient. Like, uh,
[00:32:19] Mike: resilience. You need to be resilient. 'cause there'll be knock backs every day.
[00:32:23] Alice: Yeah.
[00:32:23] Mike: So let's just pull it together. Just a couple of things. Kind of, if you were listening, kinda like to this podcast in the car and you were doing a school run or going to work, which most people are, uh, I find, what are the kind of couple of takeaways that you'd have from this?
What are your reflections on this discussion?
[00:32:39] Alice: I think that the number one might, might be easy for other people. I have no idea. But by creating Rev Digital, that also came with a clear mission and I don't know, it was kind of the first time for me that I was like, okay, I know where we are going. Because when you grow by opportunities, you just so.
That's something that really helped me. And then I'm so focused. Sometimes, you know, people say like, eh, but we also do that, and we'll, I'm like, no, no, no. Just say what? So having a mission, knowing what you are looking for and who you're talking to, that helps a lot. Like, because certainly, I don't know, you can focus,
[00:33:13] Mike: you've got certainty.
It's galvanized you.
[00:33:15] Alice: Exactly the second one we didn't talk a lot about during the podcast, but it's really, uh, having the team with you on that mission and that it's, uh, harder than we think. Yes, because we don't have the same background, we don't have the same expertise, we don't have the same day-to-day, and I need my leadership committee to work with me.
They've been great. I mean, we work very well together, but it's still a process. It's still learnings we need to do together and we all do learnings in different part of the story, different ways, and so we need to bring that, uh, together and, and talk about it. So that's been really like, um, insightful for me to share.
What I'm learning and what they're seeing and what they're learning. That's really, really fun and also fun to see everything changing and updating and uh,
[00:34:01] Mike: and working. Yeah,
[00:34:02] Alice: and working. So that would be the main two thing. And then after, I think. Development. I don't know. For me anyway, I, I had a lot of trouble at first thinking I was going to go into that field.
I think it's very, it doesn't have a nice image, you know? Yeah. We think about people knocking at the door with their Yeah. Little. Exactly. So I kind of felt uncomfortable at the beginning. I was like, ah, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be that kind of person now, like annoying other people. So I, I'm trying really to.
To do that job my way and the way I wouldn't want people, you know, to exactly better me with and really to bring value. Uh, so we are trying also to, you know, to create like event that has good values for Target, but we're also doing white papers and just being so much involved in that industry now. I see I can bring some.
Values in conversation with any client, not just retailers, any client, definitely I know I can bring something on the table that that helps me, like liking my job and wanting to do it even more.
[00:35:05] Mike: And being true to yourself, I think is what you're describing there.
[00:35:08] Alice: Yes.
[00:35:08] Mike: The one thing that I'd add on top just before we close the show is you have a board and a boss that has the understanding that this takes time.
Patience. Yes. As long as we're seeing progress in the right direction and we're learning as we go, then the right things will happen. But it will take time, 12 to 18 months before you start to see the real fruits of those, um, seeds that you are sowing now. And I think that's great.
[00:35:37] Alice: Definitely
[00:35:37] Mike: so many people I speak to.
Like, we've got a three month gap in our revenue. Go out and find some business.
[00:35:44] Alice: It's not a a one man job. All the people that involve like, you know, like I've been talking about me a lot during that podcast, but I'm far from being alone doing that job. I would just want to give recognition to all my colleagues that are working really hard as well.
[00:36:00] Mike: Brilliant. Alice, it's been amazing. Thanks Evers much for sharing your insights. It's been a really fun conversation and just very honest about what works, what doesn't work, and what kind of mindset it takes. So thank you for sharing all that. Where can people find out more about you?
[00:36:12] Alice: Well, our website is, uh, ref.digital pretty easy.
And, uh, if you obviously share that podcast, uh, my LinkedIn, at least, the, the DLA DOLA in English and uh, yeah. We'll be happy, uh, to uh, to uh, to talk to some of the listener, which I did myself with a few of your people that were on your podcast.
[00:36:34] Mike: Perfect. Thank you. And for those people that are listening that are just thinking about business development, different channels, podcasting's a great way of having another channel to market of getting in front of your audience that hopefully are listening.
So thanks for taking the courage, Alice, to come on the show. Thank you and I hope you enjoyed the process.
[00:36:54] Alice: Yeah, it was. It was fun.
[00:36:56] Mike: Great. Alice, thanks very much indeed. It's been great.
[00:36:59] Alice: Thank you very much.
[00:37:01] Mike: Thanks for listening to hile, the B2B Sales Club podcast series with your host Mike Lander. Please subscribe so that you'll catch all the next episodes.