Empowering the Future of Sales Using AI and Innovation with Lauren Palmer

Mike (00:00.479)
Lauren, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the BTB Salesforce podcast.

Lauren Palmer (00:13.902)
Thank you so much for having me, Mike. I feel like we've been talking for so long, so I'm so glad we got to this.

Mike (00:18.946)
And they said, why? And yet we haven't known each other that long. And yet we've been having conversations, exchanging emails. And that's the beauty of doing these kind of podcasts is you get to know people and just like meet great human beings and have really interesting conversations. So I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you.

Lauren Palmer (00:21.837)
Not at all.

Lauren Palmer (00:33.87)
Thank you so much for inviting me.

Mike (00:35.415)
No, pleasure. So, as always, I don't introduce my guests, my guests introduce themselves. So, who are you, what do do, and something unusual about yourself?

Lauren Palmer (00:44.856)
gosh, you always throw me off with the unusual part. all right. So for the listeners, my name is Lauren Palmer. I'm the VP of North America for a business called Interlink. We are a pioneering global B2B demand agency. And we are really trying to disrupt the space. We're definitely an AI first business. So we're really trying to break new ground. And my job is to lead the commercial team here in North America. So you will probably hear by my accent.

I am British, but I made the leap over to New York City only a couple of months ago. So it's been a whirlwind few months building, scaling the teams, but it's been great fun. Something unusual about myself, I suppose I was quite, take it as my sales background really, I was very competitive when I was young. I was big into my sports and I used to play for my county, which was La Crosse.

Mike (01:34.873)
Uh-huh.

Mike (01:43.975)
wow.

Lauren Palmer (01:44.244)
And a fun fact is I once tackled Princess Beatrice for any UK listeners there. So yeah, yeah, it was good fun. It was great. It definitely supported my competitive nature and kept me busy and outside. So yeah, it was good fun.

Mike (01:50.179)
Really? Wow!

Mike (01:57.977)
very good.

What counter was that? very good. Excellent. Do you still play now or not?

Lauren Palmer (02:02.488)
Sorry. Yeah. I don't. And it's very different in the US. In the US, lacrosse is a full contact sport. So slightly different. And it's very male. think it's more for men here than it is for women. Whereas back at home, I think the men here wear head guards. So full on contact sport here. So I will avoid that at all costs, Mike. I'll stick with my Pilates.

Mike (02:09.256)
how is it?

Mike (02:16.856)
Huh.

Mike (02:20.695)
Yeah, yeah.

I was gonna say probably avoid that. Probably best, exactly, definitely. So we have three questions we're just gonna talk about. So the first one really is how have you seen B2B sales change pre and post COVID? And what does this mean for kind of sales professionals looking for more flexibility in the way that they work?

Lauren Palmer (02:46.446)
Sure, yeah, it's a big question because my God, so much has changed, hasn't it? And certainly in the way that we operate as a commercial team. So let's think about pre-COVID. When it comes to sales, the foundation of good sales is always relationships. Having good relationships with our customers, really understanding our customers, leaning into what their challenges are, solving problems for them.

I will admit, a lot of that was done in face-to-face meetings. Certainly in my field, it wasn't even just formal face-to-face meetings. We got to know our customers really well. There was entertainment, we'd go out for nice dinners or we'd go away together. Obviously that was all torn away, wasn't it? So COVID pushed us into our homes, it stuck us behind screens. And the way I describe it is I think it's become how I call

Mike (03:16.697)
That's right.

Mike (03:31.042)
Exactly.

Lauren Palmer (03:41.94)
is the era of digital self-serve. So it's completely virtual now in the way that we transact and operate with our clients, not all the time. Obviously we have the joys of meeting as and when people are in the office, but that's less common now. So I think for a sales professional, it's being very conscious that your prospective buyers are wanting to get as much information as they can from you and your business virtually.

And I also think it means that you have to be much more creative in terms of how you are standing out from the crowd. You're really cutting through the noise and that isn't easy. And that's going to get even more, isn't it? With the influx of AI and tools and outreach, I think it's certainly changing. I'm actually experimenting a lot at the moment with video as a tool to just keep my customers updated. I certainly wouldn't want to use video to

Mike (04:34.329)
Okay.

Lauren Palmer (04:40.15)
sell a product and do a full pitch and send it to someone. But a one to two minute video of someone that you've engaged with previously and you want to just give an update on industry trends, what you see is happening, ping it on LinkedIn. know, that kind of testing and trialing of different creative strategies is something that, you know, we've got to be at the forefront of.

Mike (04:41.742)
Yeah, yeah.

Mike (05:01.731)
So just out of interest, so again, this wasn't part of the question, but it's all part of the podcast is for your own lead gen, because obviously it might work just first of all, just talk about what you do as a company without doing a sales pitch, but just like what you do as a company. And then talk to me about how are you generating leads yourself as a business?

Lauren Palmer (05:21.794)
Yeah, yeah. So we work with primarily technology vendors or financial services, and we essentially are distributing their content and getting it into the hands of the right decision makers and buyers. So obviously you spend a lot of time producing a great case study or white paper or ebook, and you want to make sure that it lands in the lap of someone who can read it, educate themselves on the company, and then be followed up by sales.

and hopefully close down as a deal for that business. it's very much about what we do with our clients, smart data segmentation, who are their buyers, what does the buyer group look like? And then foundational to Interlink is we run hyper-personalized programs to really speak to the different buyers that make up that expanded buyer group.

So to answer your question, we practice what we preach, right? Everything that we sell and we do to our clients, for our clients and the tech that we use for our clients, we use for our own prospecting. You know, we spend a lot of time understanding our ICP. I think, well, there's a book I'm reading at the moment actually that talks about how the best salespeople have really lived a life or lived a day in the life of the buyer that they're trying to target.

Mike (06:17.101)
Good. Yeah.

Lauren Palmer (06:43.106)
You know, it's not just about surface level, who are they? It's like, what do they do on a day to day and why would that solution be of relevance? So lots of time on really understanding the buyers. And then for us, again, practicing what we preach with the personalization. And I think that's going to get even more, isn't it? In, you know, the next few years where consumers are so used to this personalized experience, B2B needs to follow suit.

Mike (07:03.897)
Absolutely.

Lauren Palmer (07:12.056)
but it's a little bit behind.

Mike (07:13.945)
So just talk about that kind of B2B being behind, because I think that is genuinely true. I think B2B sales is definitely behind where business to consumer has been in the last few years. And it's a great opportunity. I've obviously thought a lot about how do I generate leads? How do I generate new business? And what I've kind of brought it down to is you have to be a thought leader and you have to build relationships.

They have to be trusting relationships before someone's going to let you on the inside of their business to help them grow, improve profitability, negotiate better deals, whatever it might be. And that just takes time. is no silver bullet to solving that problem, I don't think. What are your thoughts around B2B and Kedli Generation and all of that?

Lauren Palmer (08:04.886)
Yeah, again, it sort of ties back to that creativity piece, doesn't it? I mean, it's ultimately it's about where do your buyers hang out? Where are they? And certainly for me, my buyers tend to be marketers or advertising agencies. so LinkedIn for me is a very powerful platform because that is where my buyers spend time getting up to speed on market trends and what they should be thinking about for strategies for next year.

So that is a place that I am going to be very visible on. And I invest a lot of time in my personal brand. And to your point, Mike, that is certainly not about selling my products and selling Interlink as a company all the time. It's having a voice, being really comfortable and confident in your voice and always adding value. That's fundamental, isn't it, to sales as

as a successful salesperson, adding value at every outreach. And that doesn't have to be through your traditional cold calling or email tactics. It could just be being seen as an influencer in that space and someone who's very respected in that field and really understands what they're talking about.

Mike (08:58.457)
I so.

Mike (09:18.007)
Yeah. And being genuinely helpful and not to me, you know, if I think about, if I think about my customers and my relationships that I have in business and I think about their needs first, I think about the problems that they're facing and I try and help them solve those problems before we get anywhere near thinking about, is there a commercial arrangement that tends to end in very good outcomes over the longterm? Yeah. I think my shortest sales cycle probably is four weeks. My longest, think is nine years.

Lauren Palmer (09:20.258)
exactly.

Lauren Palmer (09:49.39)
I agree and I think that's where B2B is a bit behind because I think B2B has always gone product first. I think it now needs to pivot to problem first.

Mike (09:56.045)
Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. So let's move on to the second question, which is, what can we do collectively to improve the perception and attractiveness of sales as a profession? So the first thing is sales as a profession. Why are there no sales degrees? Why is sales seen as being this, you're in sales at the party when people run away from you? What happened in the world?

Lauren Palmer (10:24.654)
Honestly, it is a topic I am so passionate about, Mike, because I am fed up of going to the pub and telling my friends I work in sales and seeing the eyes rolling. And I think it's got worse. I really, really do. I do, I do. think with the influx of AI tools, what it's done is it's created even more unethical and bad sellers. And that's ruining it for the rest of us, right?

Mike (10:25.753)
It just doesn't make sense.

Mike (10:36.523)
Exactly. Really? Wow.

Mike (10:49.847)
Right. Yep.

Lauren Palmer (10:54.318)
I'm extremely passionate with some of the work I'm doing in the background of building a team of ethical sellers that are doing right by our clients and our customers. And in turn, my life goal, which is a big one, is for more people to be really proud of working in sales and for it to be seen as a really good profession to work in because it is in so many ways. It's such a...

wonderful job where you work with amazing people on a day to day basis. It can be a very financially secure job. It's incredibly rewarding. And ultimately, sales makes the world go round.

Mike (11:25.336)
It is.

Mike (11:35.417)
Exactly. Where does the revenue come from? Where do people think all this revenue and growth comes from? Well, it comes from people selling, building relationships and selling propositions. And maybe it's the word, maybe we need to change the word. But people have tried that saying, I'm head of growth or I'm head of BD. It's all the same thing. It's all about basically we're in the profession of being salespeople.

And that's a great profession to be in.

Lauren Palmer (12:06.476)
It really is. And I think it even ties into another area I'm really passionate about where I still think that there is a disparity between not enough women in sales as a profession. And I really see that going down, Mike. I interview for my team, I'm scaling up my team at the moment, and I had a few women throw their hat in the ring for roles. The majority was men.

Mike (12:17.846)
Absolutely.

Mike (12:31.267)
So why is that? Why is there an imbalance?

Lauren Palmer (12:37.006)
Gosh, I mean, that's what I'm trying to uncover and trying to change. But look, I think there's a few things. I sales still, I think has the view of it being this very overly aggressive, you know, it's only made for extroverts and people, yeah, alpha, there you go. Or, you know, even like Wolf of Wall Street vibes where it's like a bit dishonest and people are just trampling over each other.

Mike (12:39.341)
You

Mike (12:52.153)
Yeah.

Mike (12:58.264)
Yeah, yeah,

bit shady. Yeah.

Lauren Palmer (13:02.582)
Yeah. And I think words, someone used the word the other day, that must be really dog eat dog world sales. And I was like, I don't want people to think that because it's not, it's really not. If you are, if you are a true seller, it's ultimately about building good relationships and offering support for your clients. Like we've talked about solving problems. And I think, you know, when your question at the beginning, pre and post COVID, I think there was also this presumption of this very sort of

Mike (13:10.069)
No, no it's not

Mike (13:19.97)
Exactly.

Yeah.

Lauren Palmer (13:31.118)
boys club mentality, entertaining clients, going to the golf course. But post COVID, it's not like that anymore. And I think that boys club mentality, we need to break down that stigma a bit. I want more women in this field because ultimately where the main disparity lies isn't women in sales, it's women in sales leadership. And then from there it's

Mike (13:32.737)
Yeah, yeah.

Mike (13:38.893)
Nope.

Lauren Palmer (13:55.534)
you know, having really strong female voices talking about how amazing it is or influences or every sales book that I read because I read a lot of them in my spare time. What a loser I am. They're always authored by men. So yeah, it's an interesting one, but definitely one I want to change.

Mike (14:05.399)
Yep.

Mike (14:09.593)
Not at all, Right.

Mike (14:17.497)
No, definitely. And I've never understood why. I I see selling as I've in, I've sold professional services for, I don't know, 30 odd years and thoroughly enjoyed it because it's about building relationships and helping people solve problems and about delivering genuine economic value to a client and having them speak well of you and referring you to other people. That's got nothing to do with gender. I don't see why that

I don't see why it's grown up the way it's grown up as a profession.

Lauren Palmer (14:49.6)
Yeah, I think, true, true. And I think, you know, again, it ties into systemic cultural issues, I think, in the way that sales teams are like targeted in these like very high pressure environments. And I think businesses are becoming much more conscious of how to build a high performance sales team that is motivating and doesn't push people into fear.

Mike (15:02.935)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Lauren Palmer (15:16.408)
And I think if there is this external view of this industry being high pressure, if you don't hit targets, you're out of a job, naturally for women, especially women that take on primary caregiver responsibilities at home, that seems like a really scary place. And certainly at Interlink.

Mike (15:16.824)
Yeah.

Mike (15:32.587)
Now, there's definitely something in that. think that's really interesting. Yes, I definitely agree with that. Yeah.

Lauren Palmer (15:39.456)
Yeah, because that would scare you. You'd think, I don't want to be in that environment. And I think companies, it really has to come from the top. I think companies need to do a good job of building a culture that is very collaborative for everyone to succeed. know, Interlink culture is like fundamental to what we do. And we have a team of people that are really passionate, that are all working towards the same goal.

Mike (15:43.115)
It would. Yeah.

Lauren Palmer (16:07.468)
And one thing I will say as well is they are all so different. When people say what makes a good salesperson, I think everyone has a different superpower. And if you can build a team of diverse talent and that can be in so many different ways, then that's where you're going to really thrive as a business. So definitely looking at the culture of the way sales teams are targeted and the pressure is really important to change this.

Mike (16:11.501)
Right.

Mike (16:17.368)
Yeah, yeah.

Mike (16:20.931)
Yes.

Mike (16:35.213)
And I think that probably speaks to an economic point about short-termism versus long-termism, is that the problem is if you drive a monthly quota and if you miss your monthly quota twice on the bounce, then you're out. Well, of course, anyone that needs security in a job is going to go, well, that's not for me. And therefore, that would attract people who are much more prone to taking huge risk.

It's a much more aggressive environment, hence the dog eat dog, because you'll find the deals wherever you can and close them for yourself. So yeah, I think there's something about that short term mentality and that huge pressure on short term quotas. When actually B2B buyers, we know now, we absolutely know, there are at least 11 touch points before they'll even talk to a salesperson. 75 % of buyers don't want to talk to a salesperson.

They want to get information from the web and from GPT and from other sources and then make an informed decision themselves. And then maybe talk to someone who's a solution leader to make sure it's the right solution for them. But they don't want to be bombarded by people just trying to like hit quota for that month. So I think the market dynamics are changing and maybe that'll change the way that we get women into the culture and the sales environment maybe.

by taking away this massive problem with short-term goals.

Lauren Palmer (18:08.718)
Absolutely. And I think it goes back to that sales degree you talked about. Why isn't there one? Because training is fundamental to creating that supportive environment. And I do think, you know, I've worked at businesses that have phenomenal training, but then others that maybe they just expect you to sit in that role and just go for it.

Mike (18:12.621)
Yeah, exactly.

Mike (18:29.387)
Exactly. And you're like, how would that work? You, you, you rock up on day one and you're told to go and sell and you've had no training. It's like, right. What do I do? I mean, for me, people listening also don't get me wrong. I think people should be held accountable. So if you're in a sales role, if you're not building any relationships and your pipeline's empty, clearly you can't do the role. But if you're building relationships and you can show that ongoing progress.

Lauren Palmer (18:40.462)
Exactly.

Mike (18:58.977)
on a regular basis, then you're heading in the right direction. As opposed to, what did you close last month?

Lauren Palmer (19:08.366)
Exactly. And that's why I often say I've never seen it as a high pressure environment because I've always been very communicative with managers about what is my plan. It's ultimately being a salesperson, it's having a patch of clients, working out what your strategic account plan is and being extremely open with all of the actions that you're taking, the different steps with each different stakeholder and all of the buyers, as you rightly say, and the different touch points.

Mike (19:13.516)
Right.

Mike (19:20.536)
Yeah.

Lauren Palmer (19:38.38)
And as long as you are extremely clear on that approach and your activity is high, then you're doing all the right things and your leadership will absolutely see that. It's when you become complacent and you don't have a plan and you feel a bit overwhelmed and you don't know where to start is when things fall down. But really that's where leadership should step in and be able to identify your superpower and help grow that with you because every single person is different.

Mike (19:44.631)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Mike (20:05.495)
Yeah, and that's your job, isn't it really? That's your job as a sales leader.

Lauren Palmer (20:09.966)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Mike (20:12.663)
So third question, so how can we support people that are relatively new into sales succeed in the early years of their careers so they don't get kind of put off and scared?

Lauren Palmer (20:25.304)
So sorry, Mike, it cut out for me just then my internet.

Mike (20:28.825)
Okay, that's fine. So just to our editors at 20 minutes 31, 20 minutes 30, we're gonna just restart. So I count us back in and I'll restart again. So three, two, one. So how can we support people that are relatively new into sales? How can we help them succeed in the early years of their careers?

Lauren Palmer (20:54.298)
So I would say early into sales, my biggest tip, find an ally, find yourself or even a coach, right? So the biggest thing is understanding your strengths and understanding your weaknesses and building a very clear plan as we've covered. I'd say, you know, work lockstep with your leadership team on.

identifying those and making sure that you have a really supportive environment around you. But also shadow every single other seller that is in that business, build allies with them. Because like I said, everyone operates very differently and you'll learn tips and tricks from your peers. And then the final is a coach. I I've got a business coach that has supported me throughout my career and that is invaluable to have someone

Mike (21:28.185)
Mmm.

Lauren Palmer (21:48.48)
external outside of your business to be able to soundboard things with and support your professional development and growth. So I'd say when you start out in sales, it's organization, building a team of people around who can support you. And yeah, I have no doubt that you'll flourish.

Mike (22:09.901)
So let's kind of flip it on its head for a second. What are the warning signals? If you're interviewing for a sales job and you need to bring in say early years, 100K, 200K of revenue, what are the warning signs where you go, maybe this isn't the right environment for me. What would you say those are?

Lauren Palmer (22:30.84)
Yeah, it's such a good question. It really ties into the interview process because when you interview, it's not just about you being the right fit for the business. It's also about the business being the right fit for you and the way that you work as a seller. Some sellers are very good at short-term deals, quick wins. They're high hunting prospectors, which means that order, the average sales cycle is short.

really will compliment that particular person, but then you might be someone that really values relationship building, you know, working with much larger enterprise accounts and it has that longer sales cycle. So I'd say for anyone listening who's interested in moving into sales, some key things to ask is everything from, you know, average close rate of the company, average sales cycle, how many people within the business have hit

quotas and overachieved on quotas? What is the retention rate and the renewal rate of customers? When they win them, are they keeping those customers? And yeah, what kind of personality traits within the sales team have been really successful? Listen to all of that, make sure that that relates to you before you decide if it's the right fit because yeah, if it's not, there are many other businesses where you will thrive.

Mike (23:55.839)
Exactly right. So definitely a very good message. You know, as an early stage salesperson or any kind of person going into an interview situation, you're interviewing the client, the organization that you're going to work for as a client, as much as they're interviewing you. Definitely. Absolutely. And in fact, I think it does exactly.

Lauren Palmer (24:13.998)
And it goes back to culture, doesn't it, Mike? Ask about the culture, ask about the forecasting requirements and what happens if you don't hit target? What's the support that you get? That's a really important question.

Mike (24:28.279)
Yeah, I think if you flip it on its head also, when you're selling and you're talking to prospects, you are also qualifying them as a client as much as you're, they're qualifying you as a supplier, because there are some clients whereby it's just a bad fit. Like if they've tried to solve the same problem several times, and they've got through five different suppliers in the space of three years, there's probably a bad sign there, there's a problem.

Lauren Palmer (24:56.216)
Absolutely.

Mike (24:56.247)
and you may think, well, maybe I don't want to be the sixth.

Lauren Palmer (24:59.298)
Yep, absolutely. The confidence of saying no and yeah.

Mike (25:03.159)
Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. So Lauren, we're just about the time actually. So just in summary, what are your kind of takeaway points if someone's listening and they're either a sales leader or a salesperson that's looking to develop their career, especially if they're female, what would your advice be to those people?

Lauren Palmer (25:26.734)
I will stand by that I still think sales is one of the greatest professions in the world and it's a profession that you should be really proud of. So there's so much opportunity within sales. think let's recap what we talked about, know, post COVID times have changed. It's enticing different sellers. It's offering more flexible work arrangements and environments. I think that

businesses need to be more accountable to the cultures that they create to motivate sales teams. And I think, yeah, look at training opportunities and try and park that view of sales being this scary old boys club profession, because I can guarantee it's not. It's extremely rewarding. You'll meet some amazing people on the way. Many of those people have become my very, very good friends. And it's a brilliant industry to be part of. It's not going away.

Mike (26:24.363)
Exactly right. And I think, the point you made before, which clearly you've taken on board yourself personally is find great sales mentors, find people who are very good at being a professional salesperson and learn from them and work with them. And you'll learn so much.

Lauren Palmer (26:39.118)
Definitely. Absolutely. Find your superpower.

Mike (26:42.679)
Yep, excellent. Lauren, it's been amazing. I knew it would be. Thank you. So Lauren, whereabouts can people find out more about you?

Lauren Palmer (26:46.615)
Thank you so much for having me.

Lauren Palmer (26:51.918)
Sure. So best place, I mean, you certainly will see me talking a lot about sales as a professional on LinkedIn. My LinkedIn handle is Lauren Palmer 22. So we can maybe drop that when you make a post. And then I'm also launching my own podcast actually, which is going to be interviewing, yeah, interviewing female sales leaders. I really want to give a space for more women to talk about their experience within this field.

Mike (27:08.961)
Hey, fantastic!

Mike (27:14.243)
Brilliant.

Lauren Palmer (27:20.986)
and enticing more young women to join. So look out for that. It's a website that I'm building that I should be launching in the next month or so.

Mike (27:31.447)
Brilliant. I'll also just let me know and I've got a number of people that I put on the, had on the podcast that would be, that would love to talk to you definitely who are amazing sales leaders who are female sales leaders. So definitely I can refer some guests your way. Lauren, thanks ever so indeed. It's been brilliant.

Lauren Palmer (27:47.512)
Thank you so much. Good to speak to you, Mike.

Mike (27:51.555)
Talk soon, thank you. Right, let me just stop recording. So to our producers, obviously we're out at about 27 minutes 30.