Forming Successful Client Partnerships in B2B Marketing with Claire Lambell

Mike (00:01.891)
Claire. Thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Sales to Podcast.

Claire (00:21.73)
Thank you for having me, it's a pleasure to be here.

Mike (00:23.899)
I'm looking forward to this. I mean, we had a great, great evening over vegetarian haggis, I seem to remember, quite recently.

Claire (00:31.46)
We did and actually it was a massive relief for me because I don't like the meat version. So when it was vegetarian, happy days.

Mike (00:36.967)
No, same here. Exactly. Although many pure Scots would argue that that's probably not what Haggis night should be about, Burns night should be about. But it was great fun. We did have a great evening.

Claire (00:46.69)
Definitely. We did, and I've got very strong Scottish roots, so my mother would be very disappointed. Very disappointed with me, if she heard me saying this, Mike.

Mike (00:51.307)
You have.

Mike (00:56.507)
I remember, I do remember. So, Claire, basically for the audience, who are you, what do you do, and something unusual about yourself.

Claire (01:04.45)
So I'm Claire Lambelle, I'm Managing Director at Southpaw. We're a strategic creative agency, and we work with challenger brands to outsmart the crowd. And when we say challenger, we mean mindset. So it's about having that mindset of doing things differently to stay ahead of the competition.

Interesting question about something unusual and there are a couple of things probably and I don't know whether these are necessarily unusual but definitely things that maybe people who know me don't know about me is I got into this industry not through the traditional marketing degree but actually through studying sociology and social psychology and I think much of that is just down to being bloomin' nosy and loving people watching.

Mike (01:24.321)
Yep.

Mike (01:49.42)
Mm.

Claire (01:49.918)
And maybe that comes back down to being one of five children. So I was number four of five and I spent a lot of time watching. I was quite a quiet child, but definitely made up for it in later life being noisy. So that's definitely one perhaps unusual thing. And then the second thing is I'm an avid potter, although over the years haven't done so much potting, but had the opportunity at my secondary school to study ceramics and took it for GCSE.

Mike (01:53.104)
Ah.

Claire (02:19.55)
And actually it was my highest performing grade. I got A star in ceramics and in the last year or two, I've been getting back into it. So once or twice a year, you'll find me behind a potter's wheel, trying to throw a pot, which it definitely is harder than it looks.

Mike (02:31.96)
Brilliant.

Mike (02:36.715)
can imagine. Very interesting. Never knew that about you. And yeah, it's, I always find it fascinating what people do outside of their day job. So let's get into the questions. So the first thing we said that we talked about is kind of win and lose themes. So what are your win and lose themes? So when you're faced with a competitive tender, could be an RFP, could be a client brief, what are the kind of winning themes and what are the kind of losing themes across all the ones that you've looked at?

Claire (03:03.106)
So really good question actually. And when we spoke about this, I gave it some really good thought. And it's something that we do take real time and thought post-pitch or post-project. So within client projects, we'll always do a project wash up.

And within that, of course, it's an opportunity to celebrate successes. But more importantly for us here at Southport, it's also about taking on the learnings and how do we feed that into the next project and actions moving forward. And similarly with pitches, you know, we don't just talk to the client if we lose and say, what was the rationale for us not getting through? We also...

speak to our client if we win and say what, you know, what, what were the key things and key factors that made you choose Southpaw? So kind of looking back on all of that, I think why we win and why we have such a high kind of.

Mike (03:44.576)
Yes, exactly.

Claire (03:58.186)
average client tenure is because of shared values. And that is something that we try and get under the skin of really quickly in the kind of discovery calls is understanding what drives them, what motivates them and thinking about how we can play back our values here at Southpaw and how do we ensure that we're demonstrating our culture through the calls and through every single interaction. So I think we get that a lot, you know, we get that back a lot saying, you know, it feels like our values are aligned.

I also think it's about, within the work, demonstrating a really solid, sound, thoughtful strategy. And you'd expect to hear that from me because we're a strategic creative agency, but definitely not an agency where we come up with an idea that we just want to make and then retrofit a strategy to it. We start with all the due diligence and the thoughtfulness in going and delving into insights.

Mike (04:40.305)
Yep, I would, exactly.

Claire (04:55.018)
And I think what's unique to us here is that our strategy director and our creative director work as a team. And they have been for the last 10 years. So as a creative partnership would they work as a duo. So they're constantly sounding each other out, using each other to Ask questions to

see what it what each other feel about things. So I think that really results in this solid strategy from the get-go and then playing out work that speaks to that strategy. And then I think for me having built my career through client service I think it is demonstrating real understanding of the client's business, the client's challenges, you know what's keeping them awake at night.

Mike (05:35.03)
Right.

Claire (05:39.338)
and showing a passion for their business. So that's, it could be a social sizzle reel of us, using their products, but something that just goes a little bit above and beyond what they probably expect in terms of a response. It's those kind of surprises that make client feel that you really do care about this piece of business. In terms of losing, I think...

Mike (05:47.24)
Right? Yeah.

Claire (06:07.178)
We're all probably guilty at some point in our career, if you're agency side of maybe over-complicating it or delivering too much because we're excited and we're passionate. And then before you know it, you're a hundred plus PowerPoint slides and the core nuggets are lost. I think that is probably the biggest lose thing where, actually the core idea was lost because you were talking about so much and we actually over-delivered because we were so keen.

Mike (06:22.9)
Exactly.

Claire (06:35.85)
to win. And then I suppose commercials too, you know, it's a competitive playing field. And I think more and more so, because obviously the market is as it is that we're looking to obviously demonstrate value. But often is the case where we might lose out on a project because we're not demonstrating as much commercial value as another agency.

So those would be my two key lose things, I think, from my side.

Mike (07:07.255)
So interesting. So let's talk about that, about the discovery call. So about kind of wins and loss things, because I think they tie in quite nicely. He taught that if I talk to, I don't know, 10 agencies and said, how many, how many opportunities do you qualify out? Some will say out of 10, they'll qualify out one or two. Some will say they qualify out five or six. If you look at the discovery call piece, if you get a brief or an RFP,

And the brief basically says, you can't talk to a human being until you get shortlisted in the room to present. Best foot forward, we look forward to your proposal. Broadly, do you qualify, would that be a red line for you to say, absolutely, we're not bidding? Or would there be times when you go, no, we will bid, but there's caveats?

Claire (07:58.922)
Um, it does depend on how much Intel we have on that brand already. And obviously, you know, we've got all the tools and all the, um, talent here in our new business team to ascertain what the opportunity is, but it is a bit of a red flag, I say a bit, it is a red flag because, you know, I spoke already about relationships.

Mike (08:04.375)
Yes.

Mike (08:22.516)
Exactly.

Claire (08:22.954)
And the fact that when it comes to values, it's important. And it feels like the conditions from the get-go aren't favorable. Are they actually wanting to build a relationship for the long-term, or are they, what is their motivation here? And I think, I'm not the only person in this world to say this or believe in this, but people by people. And if you can't get on a phone call with somebody to...

Mike (08:37.942)
Exactly.

Mike (08:44.683)
Hmm.

Claire (08:49.646)
to talk to them about their motivations and why this pitch opportunity exists, then that is a red flag.

Mike (08:57.003)
Definitely. And I got quite strong views on that. I completely agree with you. I think if the very idea that someone can write everything down on a virtual piece of paper that includes everything about the brief that you could possibly need to know before you go put virtual pen to paper, I think is ludicrous. You need to talk to the human beings to find out what the true motivators are, even if the criteria for selection are in the RFP or client brief document.

That may not be what's on the brand director's mind that particular moment is that things change, priorities change, challenges in the marketplace change. So yeah, I think it is a red flag. Doesn't mean like all things, it's not black and white, it doesn't mean that you don't bid, but it's certainly a red flag. The other thing I wanna talk about quickly is complexity. Really interested in the 100 slide pack thing. And I've been on the receiving ends of those and thinking, oh my God.

I'm really going to plow through a hundred slides. What's your view about this, um, making simplicity out of a complex situation and making it succinct versus, well, I'll just give you everything I've got and it'll be in there somewhere. What happens in the kind of the development of that proposal? Why does it go wrong? Why do we end up with these long packs? Do you think?

Claire (10:20.822)
I think we end up with them because people are so keen to win and they want to chuck everything at it. So I think that is, and as I said, we've definitely fallen foul of that over the years. But I think absolutely making it succinct, making it engaging is the way forward. Of course it is. You know, and we're brand storytellers here at Southpaw.

Mike (10:30.911)
Yes.

Mike (10:47.955)
Yes.

Claire (10:48.938)
So we need to apply that to how we're responding in pictures. You know, it's like a good book. You know, people leaning in, wanting to read the next slide and it having that amazing flow from beginning to end. Um, and ensuring that all the good juicy bits are in there, but the waffle is extracted, so, you know, it's, it's about, um, getting it all down on paper. And, you know, the first iteration probably is a hundred slides plus, but the ambition is to.

Mike (10:58.333)
Exactly.

Claire (11:18.55)
cut it down, refine it, and make sure it's on point. And as I said, it's telling a really good story. And of course, there's a huge amount of thought given to design. We've recently submitted an RFP, and the response back was, yours was the most engaging. It was the one that people spoke about because of the look and feel of it, but also the content, too. It felt like.

Mike (11:19.808)
Exactly right.

Mike (11:43.191)
Fantastic.

Claire (11:43.31)
there was a wonderful flow to it. So yeah, I think it's always a challenge, but it's a process of review, edit, review, edit, and putting best foot forward, but in the most simple storytelling format you can.

Mike (11:47.702)
Yep.

Mike (11:57.699)
I mean, I think the analogy of a good book is brilliant. I mean, God, like you, I read books, business books. I don't read many fiction, but I read quite a lot of business books. And, you know, face to the book that's 300 pages long, that's really hard going, and I've got to try and find out where the nuggets are, that's really difficult. Whereas something that flows and invites you into the next chapter.

It's obvious. It's like I'd rather read an amazing short book than a fantastic, really long but hard to access book any day.

Claire (12:35.434)
Absolutely, and whilst it sounds obvious, obviously the chapters need to play back to the objectives within the brief. And I think we do lose sight of that, you know, we suddenly get very carried away and lose sight of actually what the ask was. So it's.

Mike (12:41.439)
They do. We do.

Mike (12:50.651)
Exactly. And a simple thing, a really simple thing. If on the opening page, it's got five objectives, and it's got four key questions, signposting to me as the reader where they are with hyperlinks into the document is really helpful. It's really helpful.

Claire (13:09.13)
know. Very helpful but so often forgotten about Mike but you're absolutely right.

Mike (13:13.299)
Exactly. Making it easy for the reader, basically, and compelling. So next question. How do you engage with procurement during a competitive pitch cycle for those bigger brands?

Claire (13:27.266)
Well, I think the first thing I'd say about procurement is, I think they're still deemed as really scary and unapproachable and this different creature, you know? And I probably will end up talking about relationship a lot in this call, but it's about building a relationship as early as possible actually. And we're fortunate in having very good relationships with our procurement teams client side.

Mike (13:34.359)
Hehehehehehe

Mike (13:42.624)
Yes.

Claire (13:57.27)
If we obviously approach from a new business perspective, I think the first step is to get on a phone call. So we spoke about discovery call. We'd want to do the same with the procurement team to understand the conditions of the pitch, what's driving the motivations for the pitch and not seeing them as this department that should keep at arm's length because all they want to do is cost cut. And I think so many people think, oh, procurement are involved because they just want to slash our budget.

Mike (14:18.727)
Exactly. Correct.

Claire (14:26.522)
And that isn't their motivation at all. Well, it shouldn't be. It should be, how do we work with the marketing team to deliver value? Absolutely. But to find the best match fit partner. So I think the first step for us is getting on a call with them to understand the conditions and get to know them because actually it isn't just a one-off relationship, you know, should we be successful, they're going to be a huge stakeholder to our ongoing relationship.

You know, so starting to understand should we be successful? What are the steps we need to go on with you and your team to understand business conditions, understand the terms of business and contract negotiations? Um, you know, so I think it's, it's getting to know them. Um, and as I said, learning more about conditions, understanding scorecards, uh, understanding key influences, stakeholders to help us to qualify in, whether it's the right opportunity for us.

just as well as them getting a better feeling, I hope, of who we are.

Mike (15:26.203)
Yeah. And managing risk. One thing that a lot of agencies don't think about necessarily or put on the table is, well, how do you manage risk in this potential relationship? Because if you're a new agency coming into a brand, one of my jobs in my old role as a procurement director was to manage risk. I'm managing operational risk, reputational risk, commercial risk. There's all sorts of risk. And just talking about that, about what the risks are and helping me understand

how those risks will be managed. That will also set you apart because most agencies don't talk about it because it sounds negative and they think they're selling. And it's like, no, you're not selling to me. You're trying to help me understand are you the right agency fit for our organization.

Claire (16:13.514)
Yeah, absolutely. So I think ultimately leaning in, leaning in a lot more to procurement, being proactive and as I said in the outset, not fearing them. There's such a fear still, I think, of procurement teams.

Mike (16:25.747)
And we're not horrible, scary people that are there just to slash costs. Um, it's more, it's much more sophisticated than that. There are still some table thumpers out there and there always will be, but on the whole, it's much more sophisticated than that. Um, any examples in your head you can think of where you've just met procurement people as part of the kind of sales process, um, it could be that you've met them very early or you've met them late in the process where it's gone really well, just where you think that.

Claire (16:29.751)
You're not.

Mike (16:53.579)
That was an example of that's how you do it.

Claire (16:56.982)
Yeah, one of our beauty clients actually, in the last six months, we engaged with them actually on some contract negotiations because we were already working on some of the brands in portfolio and there was an opportunity to tender for another brand but they needed to update our contract or certainly re-review our contract to extend it and give us the opportunity to pitch. And I think what was incredibly refreshing was this level of collaboration.

Mike (17:11.788)
Huh.

Claire (17:25.846)
between partners. So it wasn't just you sign this contract, whether you like it or not, because these are our terms, thank you very much. She gave us the time to review, and we had some incredibly healthy debate around carve outs to that contract. And we got it to a really good place, so much so that she actually praised us on the level of diligence that we had applied to the thinking and had actually said many agencies just sign it.

Mike (17:30.742)
Yeah.

Claire (17:54.934)
They don't want to go through all the small print contracts to them are the dull, dry part of the process. And they think, well, just sign it because I want the gig. You know, I want to get the project and let's just make this swift. But actually she praised us for it and mentioned it to the marketing team saying, I just want you to know that Southpaw took the time, took the diligence, but also through that process, we got to know the procurement lead better. And I think that, you know, for us, that was a real,

Mike (18:03.755)
Right.

Mike (18:11.363)
Brilliant.

Mike (18:18.709)
Yes.

Claire (18:23.806)
a real step change in the sort of procurement relationships we were having and actually gave us a good feeling and reward for the time we do take around the policies and the contracts that were drawing up with clients.

Mike (18:38.859)
And I think that's a great illustration, Claire, of the fact that you took that time and you did the diligence and you went through the process is a great sign that that's how you're gonna work with the organization, because how you behave in the contracting phase won't be that far dissimilar from how you behave during the delivery phase. And although it's a creative process, the work that you do, it also requires diligence and clear thinking and...

depth of thinking. So I think it all reinforces the kind of things that you stand out for.

Claire (19:14.442)
Yeah, absolutely. I think it was a great process and as I said, really, really nice to be rewarded for it.

Mike (19:22.483)
Exactly, and recognized and actually sort of spoken out about rather than it just being ignored. So third question, really simple. It's almost like going back to the start of the discussion we had around opportunities is qualification. So how do you qualify in opportunities? What are your kind of criteria? So do you have a scorecard? What are your kind of criteria? How do you judge? Who judges?

Claire (19:27.326)
Yeah.

Mike (19:51.147)
whether you should bid for something or not.

Claire (19:54.914)
So we do have a scorecard. They all begin with F actually, but the top ones for us is fit, fame, firepower, and fortune. So fit is, absolutely. So the fit side of things is looking at our portfolio and making sure that actually as a brand, they will fit nicely into our existing portfolio.

Mike (20:08.955)
Do you want to explain those?

Claire (20:23.138)
So we're very fortunate in having a balance of both global and local clients. But actually if we were to take on that client, would there be any conflict of interest? And obviously that actually goes back to contract negotiations in the get go with any client anyway. But making sure that we feel it's a right fit within portfolio, but also a fit for the expertise and talent that we have in the building. The fame side of it is we're an ambitious agency and we want to continue to build. So actually will this

client opportunity, give us an opportunity to build our PR, you know, build our fame, get us column inches, and not those vanity ones actually. Of course we'd love to be featured in campaign week by week, but actually will it get kind of pick up in the grocer and other publications that our clients read? Firepower, do we have the right firepower to deliver it? You know, creative firepower, strategic firepower, and not just be scrabbling around to find whoever's free.

Mike (21:15.028)
Yeah.

Claire (21:21.858)
you know, we want to put our best foot forward and do we feel we've got the right talent to deliver the best we can possibly deliver? Fortune, I don't think needs to be explained too much, Mike, but do they have, do they have good budgets? You know, good budgets that we feel there's opportunity to build so we can leverage the success of the work that we're delivering, you know, so as we deliver work that...

Mike (21:22.038)
Yep.

Mike (21:33.438)
No, indeed. Yeah.

Claire (21:47.01)
delivers to their objectives and their KPIs that they've got the appetite to continue to spend. And then the final two in this long list, but it's fun. We don't take our people here for granted. The people are what makes this business and we want to give them some fun here at Southpool. And we want them to feel inspired and motivated to come into work every day and work on brands that excite them.

And I think that's the same feeling. You know, do we have a really good feeling about this brand? And I think we'll go back to the beginning of the conversation about, as you say, red flags. If we're not given the opportunity to speak to them and start understanding what their motivations are and also understand what they're like to work for. We can't get that feeling. So if we're told that you're not going to speak to a stakeholder, you can't get access to these people, then that's a bit of a warning light for me.

Mike (22:23.926)
Yeah.

Mike (22:43.796)
I would agree.

Claire (22:44.306)
So as I said, we definitely take the qualifying inside of it incredibly seriously because there's so many factors and risks at play if we get it wrong.

Mike (22:54.635)
I was speaking to someone a few weeks ago about experience and about it being a differentiator. And he was saying that what's really important during the pitch process from paper through to the actual shortlisting is what is it that we like to work with you? Because ultimately that has a massive impact on the quality of the outcomes.

So you've got to find a way somehow of an agency of saying that what's the experience going to be like from your side and from their side of working together. Otherwise it will be a disaster.

Claire (23:33.942)
Yeah.

Mike (23:35.251)
And the other thing is budget. So what happens when there's no budget in the document? Because procurement love to say, well, there's no budget because if you give me the budget, you'll just spend it all. What happens?

Claire (23:47.146)
Yes, that's a tricky one, isn't it? It's definitely a tricky one. Obviously it will depend on brand and if you've heard of them before, but we'll always try and push for at least a ballpark, an indicative ballpark for us to understand the level of ambition and the level of opportunity actually, even if it is year one, year two, year three, and obviously they aren't able to...

Mike (23:54.368)
Yes.

Claire (24:15.798)
demonstrate or give more detail on what years two and three hold, what is their level of ambition. But obviously there are ways and means of finding out how successful that company is or what they're spending in media, which you could do some very, very crude numbers on to understand what their marketing spend might be in kind of old term calculations. But yeah, we do always try and push for at least a budget so that we can be realistic as well.

Mike (24:30.304)
Yes.

Claire (24:43.634)
in what we come back with. You know, if we're coming back with budgets that are proposing big TV spends, then we know that's not doable. So it's in their interest just as much as it is ours to outline an indicative budget.

Mike (24:53.993)
Exactly.

And also the targets, you know, if, if they've set poor quality targets, vague, and they've not given the budget, but they want you to come out with some brilliant ideas and put your best commercial price in. It's like, well, that's never going to work because how on earth do you know? So I think that's why that comes back to the discussion about are the targets achieved more realistic, but a stretch and is the investment kind of.

Claire (25:13.069)
night.

Mike (25:25.923)
commensurate with the outcomes they're trying to achieve. Otherwise, what's the point?

Claire (25:33.906)
Absolutely. And I think it comes back around to this challenger mindset that Southpaw's is very, very much Southpaw's DNA. And if we're aware of budgets, we're not just going to spend it necessarily on all broadcast channels because it's a vanity show. We're going to make it work as hard as we possibly can to get as much traction and deliver, as you say, to the objectors and the KPIs. So it's only in their interests as much as it is ours to think about how best to spend that money.

their money to make it work hardest.

Mike (26:03.143)
Exactly. Claire, it's been fantastic. It's been a great conversation. Thank you. Before we leave, your kind of like top two or three tips as an agency leader growing a very successful agency, driving that kind of new business pipeline we know is really tough. What are the kind of two or three takeaways from this discussion for other agency leaders and

Claire (26:25.83)
I think none of this is going to be rocket science or new news, but I think that what is different about us and what drives us here at Southpaw is what we call this kind of hustle mindset and this restless desire to continue to support our clients in a challenging world, you know, challenging world for multiple reasons. And I think that is...

absolutely part of our culture. You know, we drive each other in the most positive sense. And I think that what that means in terms of tips is I think I would fail as a leader if I lost touch with the shop floor. So I stay close to all of our clients, not micromanaging my team, but actually thinking about regularity of catch up, you know, reading their annual reports.

understanding what is driving their business challenges and proactively thinking about as an agency partner, often as part of a roster, we are supporting them and ensuring that not giving them headaches, but giving them solutions to continue to drive the business forward. I think it's also the second point with demonstrating passion, you know, reading an article and sending it on to clients saying, read this thought about you, isn't this interesting? And I think it's interesting for these reasons.

Mike (27:41.769)
Right.

Mike (27:47.785)
Exactly.

Claire (27:51.35)
And the third thing is, I suppose, diligent, being really diligent. So we've spoken a lot about procurement. And it's great being passionate. It's, it's great building a relationship, but just do the basics really well. Because you, I'm sure in your career have heard so often that pitches are called because they let balls drop, you know, and they, they stop thinking about the day-to-day runnings of the account and things start slipping.

Mike (28:18.079)
Yep. Exactly.

Claire (28:19.926)
and the client's little frustrations turn into bigger frustrations. So, you know, it's great being passionate, it's great being proactive, but keep doing the hygiene, the day-to-day hygiene factors that keep the project running smoothly or keep the business running smoothly.

Mike (28:34.743)
Brilliant. Claire, it's been a real pleasure. Where can people find out more about you?

Claire (28:39.318)
They can definitely come to my LinkedIn, so look me up on LinkedIn and visit our website, so southportagency.com and get in touch. We'd love to hear more, but thank you, Mike. It's been a real pleasure.

Mike (28:50.851)
Claire, it's been brilliant. Thank you for this, indeed. So I'm gonna just stop the recording, and then what should happen is, it should.

Claire (28:53.314)
Take care.