From Passion to Profit: A Guide to Agency Transformation with Emily Metcalfe

Mike (00:00.497)
Emily, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle.

Emily (00:09.741)
Yes.

Emily (00:15.969)
Okay. Yeah.

Emily (00:21.249)
Okay, great.

Mike (00:29.179)
The B2B Sales Club podcast, great to have you.

Emily (00:31.51)
Lovely to be here on a lovely sunny morning.

Mike (00:33.985)
It's beautiful. It's so sunny, I can barely actually in my spare room see what's going on. So yeah, do you want to introduce yourself to the audience? So who are you? What do you do? And something unusual about yourself.

Emily (00:49.942)
Okay, great. Well, I listen to a lot of these podcasts. So I feel like I might my something unusual is fairly lame compared to some people. So I'm Emily. I've worked in and for agencies for most of my career, started life in creative agencies and account management and kind of worked my way up and kind of have made the move over to new business for agencies. And for the past two and a half, three years, I've been consulting.

Mike (00:53.635)
thank you.

Emily (01:19.17)
So supporting agencies, mainly independent agencies with their marketing and new business. And more recently kind of focusing a bit more on the strategic consultancy side of things. So helping them get their growth plans in order, looking at things like value propositions, ideal clients and things like that.

Mike (01:38.853)
Very good. And something unusual about yourself. It could be anything.

Emily (01:42.286)
I suppose it can be anything. I think at the moment I am on the side training to be a Pilates teacher. So don't know if it's unusual. But it's been lots of fun kind of going back to a sort of school environment and learning about how body works and stuff. So it's been fascinating.

Mike (01:50.254)
wow! brilliant!

Yeah, it is unusual, yeah. And very good.

Mike (02:00.368)
Yeah.

Brilliant, very good indeed. Right, so let's crack on with the questions. So first question or first kind of topic really, general states and trends in BD as you see them in 2025. What are your thoughts?

Emily (02:17.832)
yes, I'm kicking off. yeah, I think, I think it's a tough world out there for agencies, especially small agencies. And I kind of always check I think there's something horrendous, like 25,000 agencies in the UK, obviously, of all disciplines. So it's a busy old market out there. And I think you really need to kind of stand out and need to kind of spend a lot of time building a reputation and nurturing those relationships, I think kind of

Mike (02:32.059)
The roll.

Emily (02:47.118)
Gone are the days just of having a powerful little black book. I think you really need to kind of stand for something. And I read something quite interesting this week actually on LinkedIn, sort of saying that agencies are an interesting one. I think a lot of the times when people start businesses, there's a kind of gap in the market or some sort of need that's been identified and agencies kind of traditionally aren't, that's not why they start up. You know, there's not a kind of gap necessarily for another.

Mike (02:53.649)
I'd agree.

Mike (03:13.082)
Yes.

Emily (03:16.253)
agency doing similar things. They started for other reasons, you know, because of someone's passion. Yeah.

Mike (03:20.357)
But that's very interesting. No, haven't, no one said that before, but you're absolutely right. Most businesses by entrepreneurs are started because there's a problem, it's not being solved. So you find a new way of solving the problem that drives value for the client. And then as it gets more popular, other competitors start to enter that market. But you're right, agency world's not like that.

Emily (03:25.569)
Yeah.

Emily (03:31.617)
Yeah.

Emily (03:43.714)
Yeah. No, and I think it sort of led me to kind of think about a lot of things. A lot of the time agencies, a lot of the founders I've met, they're starting it because one, they love what they do and want to kind of strike out on their own and not be shackled by another company. Yet they love the craft. They've just kind of always had the nerve to do something for themselves. But I guess it's not always, and I think this is often leads on to what we're going to talk about, is it's not always kind of client benefit driven.

Mike (03:56.943)
End of the craft?

Emily (04:11.63)
as other entrepreneurial businesses are starting up where you're finding a need for the consumer, it's kind of driven from a kind of urge by yourself to do it. So I suppose you've really got to understand what that is and how you can make that a real positive for your clients. No, no.

Mike (04:14.15)
Yeah.

Mike (04:27.035)
But that's a great point. And that's not a negative, that that's because talented people who do great work want to strike out on their own, which is brave, often have one or two clients that they start with. And that's to be commended. However, one of my big things, topic of last year, and it will continue into this year, is agency differentiation. There isn't any. And that's a massive problem.

Emily (04:34.136)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Emily (04:42.848)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Emily (04:51.51)
Yeah, no, no.

I agree. I agree. And I said, I feel like I see a lot of fairly trite agency descriptions of things you want. I think if I see another kind of small, agile, fast paced award winning agency description, you just kind of want to scream a little bit quietly and go, that's what everyone's saying, you know, and you've really got. Yeah.

Mike (05:09.914)
Absolutely.

Mike (05:14.255)
We have great people. Yeah, you've all got great people. We've got great methodology. You've all got great methodology. We're award-winning. You're all award-winning. Data-driven, exactly.

Emily (05:19.692)
Yeah, yeah, award winnings, data driven, I see an awful lot and I really mean, you know, you've looked at some evidence to back up saying I think, you know, and I think if it is about that real passion point, you need to lean into to that and how you've delivered great work and why it was it was great. So I think so we sort of gone slightly off topic as to sort of what business.

Mike (05:41.565)
no, no, we should. That's the whole point of the podcast. That's the entire point is we find things that are interesting that we both have a view on and then we jump down a rabbit hole.

Emily (05:50.496)
Yes. Okay, good. There lots of rabbit holes. just to look back at sort of business development, when I've seen kind of working with agencies, think especially the sort of smaller independence, I think it's tough, I think there's not of these retainer projects kind of a very few and far between, especially for the smaller end of the scale. So agencies are having to work even harder to get hold of sort of smaller value project briefs or one off. So it's becoming

increasingly difficult, I'd say, and a lot more to the ones...

Mike (06:21.585)
So why do you think that's happened? So why do you, because it has happened and there's lots of evidence to say it has. Clients have moved away from long-term retainers towards project-based engagement. Not wholesale, but there is a shift.

Emily (06:25.344)
Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (06:31.49)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think as well because it's an industry both kind of on brand and agency side that's really fluid, people move a lot and I think, know, there's a sort of sense there's always something newer and better coming along and why would you kind of stick with something if people are moving and they haven't really invested in building that trust? You may as well kind of try out some different ones each time you've got some budget available to kind of keep abreast. So I think it's sort of

partly because of that, you know, there's less need to kind of, you've got such a lot of choice. You can let people down. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (07:07.249)
Ah, so let me unpick that a little bit as well. So as a buyer, you know I'm an ex-buyer, if the risk of switching is very low and the supply market is strong and there's lots of choice, then I could switch every year. Because if it's relatively low impact on our business and there's lots of choice in the marketplace, it's a relative commodity.

Emily (07:21.219)
Yeah.

Emily (07:25.645)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mike (07:36.143)
And therefore, I may as well switch to get best value, innovation, fresh thinking. Whereas if there's deep tentacles into my business and you're delivering a huge amount of value and the switching risk therefore is high, I'm less inclined to switch.

Emily (07:40.909)
Yeah.

Emily (07:46.924)
Yeah.

Emily (07:53.932)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I think a lot of clients, well, they brought a lot more of their sort of skill sets in house as well. A lot of brands have got a lot of very smart people, so they don't need the agency skill sets perhaps as much as they once did, you know, and I think agency.

Mike (08:02.672)
They have.

Mike (08:06.746)
like they used to.

Mike (08:10.523)
So do you think that, is that pendulum gonna swing back?

Emily (08:13.582)
I don't know. mean, I've seen in housing rising and doing well. It used to be something people thought, they'll never be as good or as interesting or innovative of agencies can be. But there is some kind of evidence to suggest they can be now. And I think there is a real place for agencies. But I think agencies need to, and I think a lot of it's to do with the way agencies are remunerated, doesn't help matters. You I think you want to be

Mike (08:29.669)
Yes.

Emily (08:40.31)
all agencies want to be at that top, kind of having those strategic conversations with brands. if they're being brought in to manage a small project and it's not very high up the food chain for them, it's very difficult to climb up, you know, to kind of have those conversations. And I think, no, you know, and the way the way agencies are funded is, you you want to use your your cheapest people and, you know, do it quickly to kind of keep your profit margins. So I think in a way,

Mike (08:56.495)
and they're not making any money on them.

Emily (09:07.2)
it's a sort of more fundamental change that needs to happen to kind of agencies. I think, I think also agencies are so quick, quick, turnaround, quick, you know, you, takes time to build, you know, those relationships and really take time, invest into those relationships with the clients. So you really understand them. You're only going to get to have those strategic conversations. If you really over invest in building that and coming to them with ideas and suggestions, you know, even if it is over and above your scope of work. I think.

Yeah.

Mike (09:38.097)
So there's a phrase that's come and I'm seeing it on LinkedIn like you probably are as well. I was taught the trusted advisor model. So back in the 1990s, I was taught to be a trusted advisor. And according to the true kind of discipline, it's actually a very hard thing to do because if you, to be trusted and to be an advisor to the C-suite in big brands, that takes some doing. You can't just claim to be that, that requires a lot of investment.

Emily (09:45.102)
Thank

Yeah.

Emily (09:58.498)
Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (10:03.222)
Yeah, no.

Mike (10:08.077)
in your knowledge about the industry and about the way that you run as professional services and all sorts of things. That's coming back. So I'm seeing a shift towards clients saying they want trusted advisors, not just an agency that does great work. Do you think that's true or is that just me thinking it's true and saying it's true?

Emily (10:10.573)
Yeah.

Emily (10:26.038)
No, I think that is true. And I think, you know, if you think back, that is how agency client relationships were kind of, you know, that was the ideal, wasn't it? Back in the day where you had a long term retainer with a brand and you were, you know, the agency was the trusted advisor and therefore they did more interesting things. They got onto other projects, other sub brands, and that's how you really grew the business. And I think

Mike (10:37.073)
Mm.

Emily (10:49.666)
there's perhaps been a bit of a move away for that as everyone's kind of scrambling around fighting for smaller kind of chunks of different briefs. think everything's kind of, and actually you want to kind of bring some of that up together. That's the, that's the ideal. So yes, it's a tough market out there.

Mike (11:03.291)
So one other thing before we summarize the market trend, the continuing march of the networks into the mid-market. So what I'm seeing is because of enabling technologies and scale, it's enabling the big networks to reach into clients that they wouldn't normally go for. So some of my clients, the kind of mid-market agencies,

Emily (11:18.275)
Yeah.

Mike (11:29.177)
a finder that they're bumping into the big networks when they're pitching for work in clients before they'd never really see them in. Do think that's also happening?

Emily (11:33.762)
Yeah.

Right, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a difficult one with that kind of network versus indie model. I think you're right, perhaps because some of the networks are buying up lots more kind of niche agencies, it's happening, I think, often, especially with some of the smaller Indies, as a view that they are the alternative to a network. And actually, sometimes I think that can be a bit of a misnomer. And actually, your competitors are ones like yourself rather than an alternative to that. But I can see as a

as the networks are buying up more and more of these kind of specialist skill agencies, there can be some more of that sort of battleground there. And then it's a battle on price, which is never, never good.

Mike (12:15.333)
Well, it's a race to the bottom. And with the correct use of AI, it's easier for big companies to reach into smaller companies. So in summary, what are your top three or four trends in agency world for this year that you would be concerned about if you were an agency leader?

Emily (12:17.078)
Yeah.

Emily (12:21.677)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Emily (12:35.512)
Gosh, top three, I think. I think, I think really getting understand sort of social content briefs, think sort of contents that exploded everywhere. But actually I feel like there's a lot of agencies out there saying they're doing it, but actually are they being strategic? Are they implementing AI in the right way and really helping clients understand what it is and what it is and how they can use it and not just kind of seeing as a cost saving tool purely. I think.

Mike (12:37.029)
Hahaha

Mike (12:52.849)
Hmm.

Emily (13:04.172)
I think that's one. What are the trends? I think agencies really, I think they need to own a space and really kind of stand for something. I think there's too many agencies that are trying to kind of be a lot of things to everyone and therefore, you know, nothing to no one. And I think agencies who are kind of standing for something or being really proud of

Mike (13:17.103)
Yes, absolutely.

Emily (13:30.326)
serving a particular sector or industry or doing things in a certain way, think they'll perform well and having a strong point of view. I'm not sure I got a third one here.

Mike (13:37.487)
I would agree.

Mike (13:41.233)
So one third one that we might come back to the nature of business development is changing and evolving and agencies have to realize that and we'll come back to what that means when we unpick the third or fourth question. So second question which I thought was really interesting this in the pre-record session you talked about don't hit the panic button have the courage to pause and reflect what did you mean by that?

Emily (13:47.567)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (13:56.342)
Yes, good.

Emily (14:09.688)
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we know it's tougher agencies and all agencies, even the big ones go through ups and downs with their pipeline and with their business development. And I think I've seen agencies come to looking for sort of business development, help and extra support at all stages. Where I've seen it's less successful or harder is when agencies are really, really, you know, at the bottom, it's potentially

bust time and you hit a panic button, bring in some resource that's going to be really expensive for you, hoping they're going to turn around the fortunes within the space of kind of a couple of months and then feeling disgruntled when it hasn't worked in that timeframe. And I think the mistake there is kind of hoping that there's this savior or this kind of, you know, this magic thing that you can turn on. Yeah.

Mike (15:00.685)
Exactly. There's a silver bullet that you just think you can buy and then that will solve all the problems.

Emily (15:06.51)
Yeah. And so I'd sort of always say if, if I can sort of see it is at that point that now is not quite the right time to spend probably a significant amount of their money on doing that, but there's probably some things they could start doing themselves to help. And it's building those foundations. If they are going to stay in it's being consistent. It's really understanding your value that you offer your clients. It's really understanding who your ideal clients are, who are you really for, and then building up your network.

pulling in all those network things, doing lots of stuff and being consistent, I think, rather than just sort of hitting and sort of going up for all the outreach and cold outreach, which at that point, it's just not gonna work. And I think it's a waste of money, as a kind of business owner, I wouldn't want to take the money from someone to do that for them, because I feel like it would be disingenuous.

Mike (15:43.395)
Exactly.

Mike (15:53.859)
Agreed. So something as a of a summary line for me for that kind of like that topic, that thread would be shrink to grow. I think in this market, you're wise to shrink, consolidate, reinvest in your, who's your ICP, reinvest in having a differentiated proposition, reinvest in the right people in your business.

Emily (16:03.715)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Emily (16:11.747)
Yeah.

Mike (16:21.489)
I think it's better to lose 25 % of your top line and the cost base that goes with it, refocus and then grow in 2026 maybe. It's controversial because an agency leader wouldn't want to do that. But my belief having done it in my own businesses is the most success I had was when I collapsed my group into one really focused business that became

Emily (16:33.9)
Yeah.

Emily (16:48.386)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (16:50.267)
very profitable, great value to its clients, and very valuable. That was hard to do, but the right thing to do.

Emily (16:56.822)
Yeah, and I think, I think that's it. And once things are kind of on a slightly bit more of an even keel or there's some sort of a bit more stability. Yeah, then bringing someone in to support you with those things becomes a bit of an easier journey for everyone. There's a bit more hope and you you can start you've got some things to work with as a business development person, I think. was there something someone told me about when kids want to, you know, they start a club, and then they quit, they say, like, never quit on a bad day, you know,

Mike (17:03.237)
That's a foundations.

Mike (17:08.774)
Yeah.

Emily (17:22.758)
Have a good and then and then tell me if you want to. It's a similar thing, but in reverse, you know, panic button on a bad day when things are slightly better, then bring on more people to kind of help support you because there's just more positive momentum.

Mike (17:22.768)
Yes.

Mike (17:26.554)
It is.

Mike (17:30.406)
Yeah.

Mike (17:33.763)
Agreed. And I think again, some BD basics, some really, really BD basics. So throughout that listening and you're driving, doing the school run or as I've just done, or you're going to a meeting, where can a little bit of growth come from rather than new clients? Well, obviously, excellent account management. We had a mantra at one of the agencies I work with, which is excellence, retention and growth in that order.

Emily (18:01.739)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (18:02.949)
deliver outstanding work, then retain your clients, and then they'll refer you to others. And that retention, you need a strategy for retention. It can't just be, well, we're doing great work, so we're bound to get reappointed. You need to get ahead of the curve on the, they gonna go to RFP? You've been here for five years. There's a danger that could go to RFP. If they're going to, they'll do it in the next nine months. We'll get ahead of the curve.

Emily (18:10.958)
100.

Emily (18:18.988)
No. Yeah.

Mike (18:32.389)
Find a way of stopping them going to RFP because there are ways of doing it.

Emily (18:35.894)
Yeah, I completely agree. And I think any any client you've had for sort of three years, you should be thinking that it be coming up for some cycle of review and, really getting close to them. I think they're so valuable, your existing clients, and it's, it's really, really worth over investing, I think, you know, not to the point of everyone burning out, but but really, you know, giving it all because it's so valuable, it's much, much easier to, you know, grow with them and have them on side than to try and replace them, you know, we know the cost of trying to win new business and the time it can take.

Mike (18:41.135)
You should.

Mike (19:05.956)
Exactly.

Emily (19:06.004)
is kind of too much for some small agencies as well. yeah.

Mike (19:10.481)
I think just pulling up on a point you made earlier, lots of research, lots of reports now, if you look at the top CMO priorities in 2025, one of the big priorities, the top three, they're having to now more than ever demonstrate value to their boards. So they have to show if we're going to invest 10 million in marketing activity, that's got to generate some kind of return. Now the value buckets will be, there'll be a variety of them.

Emily (19:28.237)
Yeah.

Emily (19:33.324)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mike (19:39.781)
but it's got to generate some kind of return. And that's an increasing trend as well.

Emily (19:45.046)
Yeah, no, it's really tough. And I think it's, hard for agencies as well when the CMOs or marketing directors they're working with are under that sort of pressure and also change a lot. see that as a real problem for a lot of agencies as well, is that they do try and get close to that, to that client and then the client leaves or there's a change of structure that side. But, you know, you've just really got to keep, keep at it, haven't you? And empower your, you know, your account management teams and I think your strategists as well to kind of get close to that.

to that whole team, you know, so it isn't all resting on one person who may or may not stay the course.

Mike (20:21.103)
Like if you don't have an account management strategy as an agency, then talk to Jenny Plant. Because if nothing else, she'll tell you what one looks like and she'll give you insights into what does a great account management look like. Because without great account management, how on earth are you going to retain your clients?

Emily (20:29.923)
Yeah.

Emily (20:33.472)
Yeah, no absolutely.

Emily (20:37.794)
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think there's there's some basics that you can do, isn't there? There's, mean, I was a camp person for a long time, you know, there's just some basics that should just be drilled into people that on a weekly basis, these are the things that you should be doing, you know, without too much extra burden on day to day work. So yeah.

Mike (20:50.979)
Exactly.

Mike (20:56.005)
So next kind of topic was people talk about a business development strategy. Sounds very grand. And a clear ICP and a clear value proposition. Well, great, but what does that actually mean? So what is a business development strategy? What does a clear ICP really mean? And what is a value proposition?

Emily (21:14.562)
Yeah. Yes, all good questions. And I think you're right, strategy is one of those words that gets bandied around a lot. actually, can sound quite grand to make make things sound more expensive and important than perhaps they need to be. I think a strategy is, you know, you want to be able to try and get what you are going to do on one bit of paper. And I think it's very much about what you're not going to do as well. So for me, a strategy

Mike (21:27.597)
Exactly.

Emily (21:39.564)
needs to be linked to your objectives, you know, for one, what is it you want to achieve this year or what do you need to achieve this year to hit your targets? And then it's really looking at kind of, right, what do we need to do? And let's be really focused on it. Less is definitely more in any strategy. And when I look at sort of business development strategies for an agency, always start with these sort of two foundational bits there. You mentioned the kind of ideal client and the value proposition. And again,

Mike (21:48.241)
precisely.

Emily (22:08.236)
words and jargony things just to really mean who is your client? Who is the ideal person you work with? Now there could be someone you already work with, are they your absolute ideal client? And then it's kind of writing up what it is about them that makes them ideal. Who are they? What sort of business do they run? What sort of numbers do they need? What's the product? What are the challenges they have that make them ideal for you? And then very closely linked to that is the value proposition. And that quite simply is what value

you know, do your services have for them? So what do you offer that they need? You know, and it's really that kind of simple. It's really about thinking, I'm, you I really want to work with these people, they need, you know, a very senior person to be their, you know, their partner at the board. And I am that person, I do this, and I've done that. And that's all very ideal. And then obviously, the very next thing that they would say is right, where's the proof, you know, show me where

Mike (23:05.795)
Exactly.

Emily (23:06.53)
that has happened, you know, and I'm looking for, you know, minimum three, if not five kind of really solid case studies that show you have delivered that value to those people kind of based on their needs and challenges in their businesses. And that's how it worked in here with the results to show it. And that is kind of very simply, I think how I'd start any kind of business development strategy going here's what we're going to do, right, we've identified what our value is, and what our best kind of things are.

These are our ideal clients. And then it's about breaking them down. How will we find them? Where are they? And then how much time and money and resource do we have to going after them and finding the right sort of tactics to go after them and then prioritizing that accordingly.

Mike (23:54.661)
And I think, I'd turn it around in terms of sequence. Remember like the Stephen Covey work, start with the end in mind. Well, I'd start with your results, forget everything else, start with the results and then work out well who we deliver those results for. And if we've got enough evidence to prove that we can deliver those results consistently for multiple of those types of clients. And then that helps define your value proposition and your ICP.

Emily (24:03.523)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Emily (24:10.861)
Yeah.

Emily (24:20.94)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (24:22.001)
Because too often I think agencies have a dream of going after a certain type of client. But the reality is the work that you've delivered to date doesn't match that ambitious profile that you're going to go for.

Emily (24:27.341)
Yes.

Emily (24:37.804)
Yeah, no, I think I think you're really good. And I think I often have to kind of be really quite difficult with who your ideal client is and why, you know, you're right, think there's everyone says we want to work with ambitious clients. It's another one of those phrases that we hear a lot. But really, who is who are the clients that you've worked with really well, you know, and I think that's it's a kind of is often looking at the case studies in quite a lot of depth to your point, you know, a good place to start. And I think

Mike (25:00.368)
It is.

Emily (25:04.622)
Results is a good place to start for a lot of agencies, but often I think especially in the kind of creative and PR age is quite difficult sometimes to try and tease out those meaningful results. And I know lots of agencies kind of tie themselves in knots trying to kind of tell a story based on some results. I think it is, know even the results aren't hard, hard numbers and there's some other things that you can try. What is it? What is that value? It's really linked to that. What is that result, that value you've driven for them?

you know, and actually were these kind of dream ambitious clients really the ones that you best served or not and being really kind of honest about that and realistic. Yeah.

Mike (25:43.793)
So a complete rabbit hole that has just kind of popped into my head is when you're writing a proposal or when you're going to a pitch meeting, so you're either like one of five or one of seven and you're proposing or you're one of three and you're pitching, stop doing one particular thing. And I can say this honestly as an ex-buyer. If I see the first two pages about you,

Emily (26:06.307)
Yeah.

Emily (26:09.964)
Yeah. Yes.

Mike (26:12.025)
And when you were founded and that you've got a cat named Fred and Fred's the head of creative, I will throw it away.

Emily (26:22.71)
Yeah, I... Yeah.

Mike (26:23.291)
start with, what's your problem, Mr. and Mrs. Client? What's your problem? What the complexities of that problem? What outcome are you looking for? And then we've solved problems like that, very similar to yours for other clients, and we deliver these benefits. Now that's a much more compelling way to start.

Emily (26:46.828)
Yeah, no, I love that. I did a post this week and it was kind of it's not it's not about you and it was a scene from yeah, and it really is and yeah, I completely agree and so many kind of agency outreach you see and creds it is sometimes 10 slides in and it's just been all charts and process charts and Yeah, yeah Yeah Yeah, yeah, I've been listening to

Mike (27:07.121)
The client's gone to sleep. The client's thinking about their next meeting.

Emily (27:14.83)
the Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People, all the way back again, just because it's been interesting. And that thing about, you know, the sweetest sound of someone is their own name sort of thing. you know, applying that to sort of working with a potential new brand is kind of talk about them, it's about them, they've come to you to help for you to help them, not just to hear about your reward winning, you know, whatever, your, you know, it really is. And it's such a simple

Mike (27:18.271)
yes.

Mike (27:35.15)
Exactly.

Emily (27:42.222)
change really when you think about it you know it's not a big uh you don't have to read you know you can literally just flip your your charts in the other order you know and it would it would work much better exactly

Mike (27:44.753)
So simple.

Mike (27:53.041)
put your org charts at the back. We wrote a brochure once for a client and it was a big bank and it was a marketing brochure. It was a 16 page marketing brochure. And the client went, okay, another marketing brochure. And they opened it and they started reading it and it was really high quality print. And they were like, it's got our pictures in it. The first page was them, their board, their board issues.

what the market was saying about them, what the analysts were concerned about, and that's the first couple of pages. And then it went into the kind of things that you've tried and, you know, and as they read it, they were like, you've written this for us, haven't you? And I was like, yeah, we've written this for you on the back page, it's a bit about us. But the entire books about you and the problems you face and some of the solutions you could try,

and some of the risks that you would face. And they walk that round a whole number of their very senior team.

Emily (28:57.806)
Yeah. No, it's, yeah, absolutely. think, I think even on, you know, I mean, once you've got to pitch stage with a brand, you've already, they know who you are. You're already on the list. You don't need to hammer that. But I think even in a kind of, you know, creds meeting or those introductions, having just done a very, you know, light level of homework on the brand, just to kind of have something interesting to suggest or ask or talk them about themselves is so valuable, you know, and again, doesn't take

Mike (28:59.599)
And it was so simple.

Emily (29:27.232)
a huge amount of kind of additional effort does it on behalf of the yeah I think so you know so yeah

Mike (29:30.286)
It's basics, isn't it?

That's table stakes. I think in a world that's got much tougher with clients who've got smaller budgets and have to get a bigger bang for their buck, you've got to get straight to the point really quickly.

Emily (29:47.246)
Yeah, I agree. agree. Yeah, most of the charts about who the agency is are the least interesting. know, it's sort of tell me about, you know, the person I'm talking to and then potentially having some kind of social proof points at the back end that might be interesting to them. You know, we all we worked with a similar type of, you know, client, you had a similar problem to you. Here's how we, you know, solve that challenge for them. You know, there's a point there. So, yeah.

Mike (29:48.965)
and you gotta stand out.

Mike (30:11.845)
Exactly.

So final topic, and then we'll wrap up, which was the power of building long-term relationships. And it's easy to say, well, long-term relationships are really valuable. Well, yeah, they are. OK, great. But what did you mean when you thought about that?

Emily (30:29.134)
I suppose it sort of comes back a little bit to that sort of don't hit the panic button point, you know, in that, you know, building a genuine relationship with someone they're going to want to talk to you and potentially give you some of their business takes time, you know, it's pretty rare that you could send a cold email or a cold call if those happen anymore. And someone's going to pick up and go, yeah, great, I'll come and meet you in and give you the business, you know, quite often, you know, at any one point, they say like 95 % of the time people aren't in market for what you're selling, you know,

Mike (30:57.649)
That's right.

Emily (30:58.69)
That just gives them really good context, it? To kind of going, what you're doing is building a relationship and it can be on LinkedIn and email as well as in person at events and things like that. But you're kind of meeting them, sharing something interesting, being friendly, showing up consistently, you know, being that knowledgeable person so that when they are thinking about, we might need some help there, you're in that consideration set, you know. So for me, it really is about

agencies are kind of putting out lots of content and things and can then sometimes feel I suppose disheartened when it hasn't converted immediately and you've really got to sort of say these things take time. know, it really is about doing that consistently but then also kind of making extra effort when something's particularly relevant. So you might have something really relevant to someone you met a while ago and then it's sharing it on a personal level with them, you know, and then coming back and not

and building those relationships because it's a difficult decision for lot of brands to kind of who they go with. They don't want to get it wrong. And so actually they're going to go with someone that they've seen consistently show up saying the sort of things they want to hear and being of value and being that helpful voice rather than someone who's kind of shouting at them, you know, annoying them. So I think, yeah, it comes back to that trust play, I think, and that takes time and it takes consistency as well.

Mike (32:06.916)
Exactly.

Mike (32:21.937)
I mean, I think just playing back a couple of points. One, let's just remind people that are listening, 95 % of your ICP at any one time are not in the market to buy anything. So if that's the case, you have to find a way of building a relationship with them over the long term. So I think that's a really critical point. A small example, nine months ago.

Emily (32:30.573)
Yeah.

Emily (32:34.189)
Yeah.

Emily (32:40.344)
Yeah.

Mike (32:46.801)
I met a guy, really nice guy. He'd just left one job as an agency BD leader. Was thinking about what to do next. I had a really enjoyable kind of coffee catch up with him. Then just I've kept in touch, kept on sending in bits of information, market research reports I've found, interesting trends, what people are doing, keep on doing that, inviting him to something he couldn't come. Yesterday morning, he messaged me on LinkedIn saying, I've got a particular problem around the client.

procurement type challenge. Could you just give me like five minutes? I'm not engaged with him. He's not a client, but I spent half an hour and hour yesterday just helping him think through a particular challenge. And it wasn't because I want some business. It's because I want to build a long-term relationship with him. And he knows other people that may have a problem that I can solve. And then he'll speak well of me to other people.

but you've got to have patience.

Emily (33:47.598)
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's people don't like the feeling of being sold to all the time, you know, and I think that's it. It's and you know, LinkedIn is brilliant, isn't it? Because you can suddenly keep in touch with absolutely anyone from any job you've had, know, friends of friends. It's all there. And it is that I think it's offering value without always going in with the cell, you know, and then people think actually, you're you're a good person and I

Mike (33:53.21)
No.

Mike (33:59.238)
Yeah.

Emily (34:10.936)
Trust what you're saying and it's all sort of that positive relationship and it takes time to nurture that. It really does.

Mike (34:17.006)
It does. And in fact, start with the intention of I'm not selling anything. I'm merely building a relationship with people that are good people that we have aligned values with that I can add some value to.

Emily (34:28.002)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, know, into this comes back as well. We're talking about the, you know, the value of account management or, building those relationships with your clients, you know, will only serve you really well going forward because as we know, people move around, you might move around, they might move around and kind of just keeping that kind of warm, positive relationship going into the future. They might come to you again, as you were saying with a problem or actually I've now here or there's this come up and you guys used to be great at talking about this and

Can we have a chat? And all those sort of things is often how business does happen. I there are obviously the big tenders that go out and that sort of thing's slightly different. But we're talking about the kind of the other way of business development, the kind of bulk of it, I suppose, when it is kind of looking around things. So absolutely, it's nice.

Mike (35:03.067)
Exactly.

Yeah, of course.

Mike (35:13.317)
Yeah. What Blair would say, Blair Ends would say the consultative cell. You're trying to build relationships with people and ideally it's not going to RFP because it's a consultative sales process. And that starts with building a relationship. Emily, it's been great. Been really good having you on the show. Just give me like kind of your top kind of three takeaways from this discussion.

Emily (35:25.218)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (35:36.795)
that would help any agency leader, any BD person and agency do something different tomorrow morning. Even if it's only one thing that you'd say, try something different, what would it be?

Emily (35:46.414)
Yeah. Okay. I think, well, if I'm to summarize the three things, for me, it's sort of really understanding what the value you offer is, what you are really doing for that client, really understanding that. And then also being really clear about who your ideal client is and what their challenges and needs are. And they're sort of linked things, but it's being clear. And often it's quite hard to do that.

from the inside, know, sometimes you kind of need an objective view to have a look at that for you. And then I think thirdly, as we were saying, the thing is, it's a long, it's a long game brand building takes time as do relationship building. So I think it is that kind of having a view on this is something I'm going to start now, but it's something I'm building for the future.

Mike (36:32.367)
Emily, it's been brilliant. Thanks ever so much for joining me. Where can people find out more about you?

Emily (36:35.104)
It's been a pleasure, Mike. Lovely to chat.

I'm on LinkedIn, Emily Metcalfe, it's best place to find me.

Mike (36:43.685)
Perfect, very good indeed. Emily, it's been a pleasure, thank you.

Emily (36:46.21)
Thank you.

Mike (36:48.069)
Right, me just stop recording and we're out.