Harnessing the Extreme Power of B2B Event Management with Jade Howgrave-Graham and Lucy Francis

00:00 - Lucy (Guest)
where people are trying to justify spend, where the economy is not great and where every penny is accounted for, measurement becomes a really, really big factor. So we actually have a strategy consultant who works with us and works with the client from the outset to determine, okay, what are the objectives of the event? What are you trying to get out of this event? Therefore, how are we going to measure it?

00:20 - Mike (Host)
My name's Mike Lander and you're listening to Higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast, where we bring you actionable insights about sales, rfps, negotiations and difficult procurement discussions from sales leaders, brand leaders and procurement leaders. Please subscribe to get updates when new episodes are released. Jade Lucy, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast.

00:48 - Lucy (Guest)
Thank you so much for having us. We're excited to be here.

00:51 - Mike (Host)
Really looking forward to this. It'll be great fun. So, as always, I won't introduce you, you'll introduce yourselves. So do you want to introduce yourselves? Who are you, what do you do? And something unusual that no one would know about you. If you've got something, if not, make it up, jade you first.

01:08 - Jade (Guest)
I am Jade. I'm one of the co-founding directors of Lemon Lane. I've been in the events industry for probably way, way too long now, but, fun and interesting fact, I really struggled with this. I think I must be a bit boring these days, but back in the day when I was younger and well before, it was cool.

01:24
So it was like not cool back then, but I used to be a competitive ballroom dancer and this was before it was strictly come dance or come TV. I used to have to go to school on the Monday after competitions with fake tan on and people going what have you got on? But that, yeah, in my teens that's what I used to do.

01:43 - Mike (Host)
And whereabouts was that?

01:44 - Jade (Guest)
That was in Australia but funnily enough, some of the people I used to train with were now on the show here in the UK as the professional dancers and things. But that was my life as a teenager. Do you still follow it? Yeah, to an extent.

01:58 - Mike (Host)
Yeah, you never lose the passion.

02:00 - Jade (Guest)
No, you definitely lose the passion or the rhythm.

02:03 - Mike (Host)
That's brilliant, See every time I ask people the question, there's no time for that.

02:06 - Jade (Guest)
These days.

02:07 - Mike (Host)
No, exactly, We've got Lemon Lane. But then again one could say the engagement with procurement is a dance.

02:14 - Jade (Guest)
We'll come to that later. Yes, takes two to tango there.

02:18 - Mike (Host)
It does take two to tango exactly, or are we tap dancing? Who knows? So, lucy, over to you. Who are you, what do you do? And something unusual about yourself.

02:26 - Lucy (Guest)
Lucy Francis and another one of the co-founding partners of Lemon Lane, and there's actually three of us in total. You've got two of us here. I've known Jade for 10 years and I've probably spoken to her every day and I did not know that fact. So that was a really interesting fact. Mine is I'd completely forgotten I needed to do this, so mine is not so exciting. Not so interesting, but something only probably people close to me would know is that I am a massive F1 fan, which is incongruous with pretty much every area of my life, because I'm quite a girly girl. I, like you, know normal girly things. F1 is my absolute passion.

03:04
I watch it every single week, every practice, every qualifying it's my thing.

03:09 - Mike (Host)
Wow, have you been to the live events?

03:13 - Lucy (Guest)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, I've been to Singapore, I've been to Silverstone. I love it, Absolutely love it. I'm obsessed, but it's a weird obsession. Like, as I say, it's very incongruous for the rest of my life.

03:26 - Mike (Host)
It's a good obsession. Yeah, it's a really good obsession, definitely For all sorts of many, many, many reasons.

03:31 - Jade (Guest)
Amazing. I love that Because loose like you're very reserved sometimes with the excitement, aren't you loose like, literally in your eyes, it's there yeah my passion's vinyl.

03:46 - Mike (Host)
So I used to collect them back when I was 16, lost the collection and then I've restarted. But the same thing, jay. When people talk to me about vinyl, I'm like, oh, have you got this one and why did you buy that record? And what do you think of that, and what's the audio quality like, and what's the best recording? We all have those kind of things in us which ignite our passion.

04:03 - Lucy (Guest)
It's really important.

04:04 - Mike (Host)
It's really important. So thank you for that. Let's go into the first question before we lose the audience altogether.

04:10 - Lucy (Guest)
Unless they're F1 fans, in which case they're all in.

04:14 - Mike (Host)
They're all in, or they're ballroom dancing fans Same thing, they're all in. So we've now got a very niche audience. So what are the biggest changes in the events industry over the last kind of 20 years?

04:28 - Lucy (Guest)
What are the current challenges? What's been going on? So I think the event industry has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. I think it's probably say it's grown up in those 20 years. Certainly, when I joined the industry literally 20 years ago, it was a very different world to where we are now. It's obviously grown a lot in size, but it's just evolved so much in so many other ways as well. But also, I think, like to differentiate as well. I think even in the last five years it's changed dramatically.

04:51
And I think COVID was a real catalyst in the event industry and certainly from a technology perspective. Yes, it was evolving, evolving, evolving, evolving. But as soon as COVID hit, that actually and I remember someone saying at the time, this year of COVID, or two years, as it transpired to be, will evolve the event industry 20 years in terms of technology, which is so true. The virtual, the hybrid, the technology, the ways of working, the ways of communicating it changed it forever. So I think technology is a big piece, and not just from a virtual hybrid, but also just expectations for events are so much higher because of technology.

05:29
So people take for granted now that their experience is personalized, that they're getting what they need from the event. So I think technology is a really big piece and, as I say, I think that was put laying along. And then the last five years has just gone through the roof from a technology perspective, and obviously right way, because technology for technology's sake is just pointless. What we're trying to work on is how can we make technology work for us and make the experience more meaningful, as opposed to oh my God, we've got these amazing technology pieces. It's about, okay, how could technology benefit the message that we're trying to deliver in this event? So yeah, technology big topic.

06:25 - Mike (Host)
And event. But when we say the event industry, we're talking here about B2B events, so a large corporate running an event, either for their own employees or their partners or their customers, whatever it might be, but that kind of event. So, jade, what are your thoughts?

06:42 - Jade (Guest)
Probably a topic close to your heart, mike, is procurement and their strategic role. Oh Jade, what are your?

06:45 - Lucy (Guest)
thoughts, probably a topic close to your heart Mike is procurement and their strategic goal?

06:47 - Jade (Guest)
Oh yes, you know I think even going back 15 years ago, like the ways of doing business and I know this, you know in the event some side was you know it was still sometimes over a round of golf or it was a you know back of a bag pack in a bar and a couple of drinks or who was taking me on the best fam trips and you know whining and dying me and I think you know that 15, 20 years ago that was definitely still the done thing. I think in the last 10 to 15 years as well, you know it was loosely. It became loosely tied to then business travel when procurement was getting involved. You know it was seen as a bit of a bolt on and add on. But you know events isn't as simple as a transactional piece of business, like business travel is. So I think now it's seen as a bit more of a strategic investment. It's often recognized as its own standalone pillar within those buying frames and I think that comes down to how much that events business is worth.

07:40
In the industry as well, there's a real cost, a focus on, you know, cost compliance, consistency and I know not so much in our field because we're more creative in that journey and the strategy piece. But you know there was also that term of strategic meeting management programs that was on trend. You know that was a real strategic piece with procurement and that meeting side of things. But you know outside of those transactional spaces events are complex. You know they're service led, they're that creative piece. You know how do you put a price tag on someone's creative involvement there. So I think, building that shared understanding, you know with your stakeholders who want that creative or that everything procurement, you know how do we get them on board and you know it's critical to unlocking that value I guess.

08:25 - Mike (Host)
These are big spends, so for for the audience, just give a range. I don't want any client names, but just give a range of what an event spend in totality might be.

08:32 - Lucy (Guest)
The one that Jade's negotiating at the moment is about 2.5 million for the November events, so they can vary. You know, like we do small, I say small, 50k events, you know, one day conferences through to, yeah, 2.5, 3 million and, yeah, people are spending that on a. We do small, I say small, 50k events, one-day conferences through to 2.5, 3 million and people are spending that on a one-day, a two-day conference. So these are big sums of money.

08:54 - Mike (Host)
They can be big sums of money and that's why, unsurprisingly, procurement get involved. Big sums of money, lots of potential for poor governance in the events industry because of the supply chain and the localities, and large sums of money at stake. How do you just out of interest, so unscripted, because they're always the best questions because I've just thought of it and Jade's now looking quite terrified, thinking what's he going to ask?

09:19 - Lucy (Guest)
I love questions like this. I'll jump in.

09:22 - Mike (Host)
If you get stuck talk about Formula One, it's perfect. So how do you measure the impact? Because if I'm a procurement person and I'm like, I don't know the events industry that well, but I know it's two and a half million, it's a lot of money. So I'm going to get asked by the CFO or the CEO did we get value from the event? And I need an answer. How does your industry help buyers like me? Tell a story about impact and measurement to our board and we haven't rehearsed this, but Lucy's going to jump in- I was going to say it's funny, you should mention it, because we do actually have a webinar.

09:55 - Lucy (Guest)
We have a webinar on this very topic coming up.

09:58 - Mike (Host)
There we go there we go. Listeners, you should tune into the webinar definitely.

10:03 - Lucy (Guest)
So, yeah, event measurement is something that is again very topical at the moment because, you're completely right, where people are trying to justify spend, where the economy is not great and where every penny is accounted for, measurement becomes a really, really big factor. So we actually have a strategy consultant who works with us and works with the client from the outset to determine okay, what are the objectives of the event? What are you trying to get out of this event? Therefore, how are we going to measure it? And measurement tools are wide, vast Measurement tools, such as attendees showing up. That's not really a measurement tool. It's about what are we wanting them to do? What are we wanting them to feel? How are we wanting them to engage? So we've got a range of measurement tools. So, once we've established the objectives, we then work through.

10:45
Okay, these are the tools of how we're going to measure. What does success actually look like? We'll always be looking at that measurement piece from the pre, from the during and from the post. It's no good just looking at. Okay. Oh, did you have a lovely time? Did you enjoy the coffee and tea?

10:57 - Mike (Host)
Was the food good yeah?

11:08 - Lucy (Guest)
So it's about okay, what are the objectives, how are we going to measure that at the beginning? So how people are feeling about the brand, about the event, about the objectives at the beginning, how are they feeling during and how are they feeling afterwards? So that obviously goes alongside other parts of measurements, such as our sustainability measurement piece, engagement with apps and the actual physical movement around the venue. So there's lots of different ways of measurement. But that is so critical at the moment and, as I say, it's a really hot topic in the industry, because you need to be able to justify that spend and be able to show that it added true value to what you were trying to achieve.

11:35 - Mike (Host)
And especially things like partner conferences. I remember going to the Microsoft Global Partner Conference in the States once and they took over an entire city. It was remarkable, but I don't remember being asked after the event. Well, you know. So what does that mean in terms of driving sales for that technology partner? That's why they invited us. We're going to drive sales for that technology partner and ourselves. So, yeah, I think the post-event measurement is really really important. What difference has it made?

12:02 - Lucy (Guest)
Yeah, but also, like, I think, the pre as well, like how have we moved the needle? What were people thinking before? How have we moved the needle afterwards? So, yes, it's a really interesting topic and, as I say, we've got lots of thought leadership out there, lots of a webinar coming up on it as well. So a topic close to my heart.

12:20 - Mike (Host)
Very good, Jade. What are your thoughts?

12:22 - Jade (Guest)
I was going to say the same as Lucy. Like, it is about that pre-measurement piece, because what are people feeling or what do they know about? You know, what message are you trying to convey, what do they already know about it and what do they do at the end of that event? Like, do they still have the same feelings? Have they learned anything from it? Is it going to be, you know, is the purpose of that event had that right outcome? Purpose of that event had that right outcome? You know, has it been the value? Has an event been the right forum for them to learn or to engage? You know, that's the initial question too. What is that initial objective? And is an event, even sometimes, the right forum?

12:53 - Lucy (Guest)
I think it's really interesting as well because, if you know you might get can't come to you say, oh, we've just we've merged all of these um different regions and this is a a really great opportunity for all of us to get together and really kind of get to know each other and, you know, really network, but we've got no money, so we're going to do it virtually and I'm like, okay, great, that objective does not fit with that format, so you're better to not do that and you're better to wait six months when, potentially, you can do something in person. I mean, obviously we will throw everything at a virtual event and we'll absolutely try and bring as much networking and as much, but there are certain objectives that need to be in person. And then there's certain objectives that really don't. You know, if this is just a, we need to bring the sales team up to speed on some new um, some new products, and they're all spread around the country and it's for half a day.

13:41
You don't need to bring people together. We can do a really nice virtual event. So I think it's um, we try and make sure that we're not just order takers and that we are actually thinking about okay, what are you trying to achieve. What's the best format to achieve that? And then how are we going to measure the success afterwards? So really, important.

13:59 - Mike (Host)
I mean, I think, if you look at training as an event on a much smaller scale so I do a lot of training with clients If you look at the difference in impact between me doing an in-person event and me doing a virtual training event, it's huge. You look at the survey data, you interview the delegates. You look at the impact on sales in terms of uplift and negotiated margins. There's a massive difference because when they're in the room, there's something about physical presence whereby I'm with you. We're talking about something. You can interrupt me, you can see things I'm drawing on the board, you can look at your colleagues and see how they're engaging or not, but it makes a huge difference. So, just interested about are you seeing a move towards more virtual events or back in person?

14:47 - Lucy (Guest)
We're seeing that people have it as an option in the portfolio, so it's another tool in the shed. To be honest, I'd say, still the majority are in person, but absolutely it's on the table, but it's really just part of the portfolio. So we, as I say, we look at the objectives, what's the best way to deliver this, and also, I mean the other thing that obviously feeds in a lot is the sustainability perspective as well. So ESG is a huge part of the event industry as well nowadays.

15:18
So again, if we're looking, at an audience and they're saying we've got 50 people in there around the world and we want to get them together for a one-day conference. You're going. That is not a great idea then we're looking at virtual, or we're looking at hybrid, or we're looking at or even kind of regional events as well. That's the other option.

15:37 - Mike (Host)
The travel can double the size of the event cost easily.

15:41 - Lucy (Guest)
And also I mean business class flights. The carbon emissions from a business class flight I should know the stat, but I think it's about 10 times more than it is from economy as well, and when you're talking about corporates, a lot of people are traveling business class. So all of that plays into the mix of what should the format of this event be and how do we measure success. So lots to consider.

16:02 - Mike (Host)
Something to keep in your mind for the end of the show maybe is that have you got any fun stories, an event that's in your mind where you go, something funny happened or something unusual happened, or it was just one of your favorite moments. Anytime in the show. You can say what it is if it comes into your mind. But we'll carry on. So, listeners, wait until further on Next one. How and when do you engage procurement to maximize value for all parties? So this is obviously. I'm an ex-procurement director. People know that we can be very tricky, especially if we don't understand the category. So how do you engage with this in a more building trust approach than the tactical buying approach? Jade?

16:44 - Jade (Guest)
Yeah, I think obviously early engagement is ideal. It's not always guaranteed by any means, but I think it's about getting them on that journey and educating them about A who you are, what your service offering is, what you're there to do for them and how you can collectively your service offering is what you're there to do for them and how you can collectively win. I guess you know that you're there. We're sometimes boarding partners as part of a formal RFP process. Other times, you know, it's been an organic relationship that's grown as we've started. You know delving in and working with them. But I think initiating that communication piece with them and connecting ourselves about how we can benefit their outcomes has always been the winner there.

17:20
You know it is about being proactive and not reactive. It's about showing them you know we're managing that part of their business for them. You know, even if we're not asked for it. You know providing that reporting. You know highlighting to them value, especially if they don't know much about this pillar. You know where value is, what you should negotiate on, what we stay clear of, because it's only going to have a bad outcome for the guests. But you know the savings are there, what the opportunities are there. It's about that consolidation piece and also risk mitigation you know it's about. You know, sometimes within this industry you've got people going out, but that in itself, yeah, you might be saving on some management fees, but then that can open up another whole arm of further pain, I guess.

18:00 - Mike (Host)
I mean as a procurement professional. One of the biggest things that I was concerned about always is risk.

18:06
The thing that suppliers never talk about because they are frightened it will put me off, is talking about risk. But it's the opposite. If you understand the risks and you can explain them and how we mitigate those risks, you're far more likely to get me on side, and I think your point also. I did a lot of work in travel for a few years about managing travel spend. It's really simple once you've been involved in it. But you realize that the fee that the agency charges, or the travel provider charges the TMC, their fee, is insignificant in comparison to the spend on the actual travel or on the venue or on the facilities or on the merchandise. So me beating you up on your management fee is looking in the wrong place.

18:59
I've always thought You're really looking. In my view, if I was managing, if I was looking at a big event with you and it's two and a half million spend, I'd be looking at the entire totality of that spend. Where are the big levers that we can pull on that drive more value? We may keep the spend the same but drive more value for us as a business, or we may try and reduce it because it's overspend. But I wouldn't spend all my time beating you up on what's your percentage of the fee, based upon the size of the event or whatever your structure might be. I think that's all a bit pointless.

19:31 - Jade (Guest)
Exactly, and I think with events too it can. Really, you know that percentage of fee versus the total spend can be so skewed at times because if you've got really large venue hire fees that you know, sometimes in the hundreds of thousands, that's really going to skew rates compared to a smaller event. So it's not that like for like there. And I think again with that procurement piece, you know, when we set up Lemon Lane we knew we had to be well equipped in this landscape procurement piece. When we set up Lemon Lane we knew we had to be well equipped in this landscape. It's about those robust processes, about the reporting, about having all the infrastructure that are going to also tick a lot of that procurement boxes as well, to know that they're dealing with reputable people that know what they're doing, that have that infrastructure there and we're not just in the back of someone's house.

20:12 - Mike (Host)
Exactly. Yeah, You're not working out a shed with Fritz the dog, no. Another question that was always on my mind whenever we did big spends like this. I don't know what size your agency is, I don't need to know, but what the story's about, the illustration's about, is if we're spending two and a half million on the event. There's two ways of doing this. Either I, our company, we will pay away to all of the suppliers and then we'll pay you your management fee. So that way we manage the working capital stretch. Because if I ask you to pay away for the hiring of Olympia and that's 200,000, 300,000 pounds and that comes out of your working capital, if you're a small agency and I pay on 90 or 120 days, that could kill you. So what we were starting to do in procurement was think actually, look, you're not a bank, so maybe we should pay away direct to the venue providers and the catering companies and then we pay you your fee and associated things. How does that work currently in the industry in your experience, Lucy?

21:18 - Lucy (Guest)
Mike, I'm just thinking that we needed to work with you as a procurement person, because you sound lovely and fair and and reasonable. Yeah, very reasonable, but no, the reality is I don't think there's a single client that we've got that operates like that.

21:32
They're all paying us the money and then we're paying out on their behalf, which I get, because actually part of the service that we're providing is taking that pain away from them, of all of the POs that they would have to raise and all of that. So we get it. We are very lucky that we have a lot of big clients, but a lot of them have very reasonable payment terms, so we don't get lumbered with those 90, 120 day terms normally, which is great. So no, we very much take up the payment piece as part of our service offering, part of taking the pain away from the client. So, yeah, but it's a nice idea.

22:08 - Mike (Host)
Yeah, the reason we did it was because back in the day when I was in the outsourcing industry, we had some agencies or an agency that went bust and they were deploying contractors and of course, for the client client had paid the agency. Agency went bust. Agency hadn't paid the contractor. Contractor's doing work for the end client. Contractor says I've not been paid. Client says but I've paid the agency and we were the facilitator in the background saying yeah, that's why we look at supply chain risk.

22:39 - Lucy (Guest)
Yeah, that makes sense.

22:40 - Mike (Host)
So we then started looking at what we used to call margin only, where we'd pay some suppliers a margin only. Sorry, Jade.

22:47 - Jade (Guest)
I think also that, again going back to that, when we set up Lemonade we put in really clear payment structures in that also marry up with a lot of these suppliers. So we're not exposing ourselves by any means. So we know by about this point in the project or the planning. Obviously in the ideal world we need to have invoice for a certain amount and regardless of whether that 30 day or, I think, 45 days, whatever, we try and build that in to eliminate that process. But I think, going back to what Lucy said, a lot of our clients want that consolidated invoicing piece from their side. It also helps with that reporting and takes up things there. But that comes down to us to really manage and drive that payment model throughout the planning.

23:30 - Mike (Host)
Let's just talk about for a second your success factors for winning new work. So how are you finding new client work? How are you finding client acquisition? What do you do? Because I ask every agency that come on, no matter what area of agency services they provide. Basically, how are you finding new clients? What are you finding Out of the two of you? Who does more of the new client acquisition? Or do you both do it, or does your additional partner do it? How does it work in your agency?

23:58 - Jade (Guest)
Look, getting in people's doors is the hardest challenge, especially in this industry, because a lot of people buy from people. I think, as I said, going back to 20 years, a lot of this relationship piece or getting business wasn't by procurement or necessarily RFPs. It was who you knew. But I think to this day our biggest lead generator is word of mouth, it's referrals. You know we pride ourselves on operating as an extension of our clients. You know we know we're part of their team essentially it's not an us and them and I think that that value of being trusted, of being that extension, you know that word of mouth spreads pretty quick and you know you're only as good as your last event. You've got to deliver being. You know even past clients moving between businesses.

24:36
You know I've had a client that I used to work with in Australia back in 2000. He relocated back to the UK and picked up the phone and this was 10 years later. So again, I think it's word of mouth. That's what's been our biggest success of getting referrals or in the door with new clients.

24:53 - Mike (Host)
Unsurprisingly Jade. That talks to trust. If you look at all of the data that we're seeing now about why clients buy from new suppliers, trust is a massive issue. In a market whereby we all know about AI and about AI outreach and about cold outreach, and in a world of noise and the inability to trust communication from someone you don't know, well, you have to go to people that you do know. But that makes growth really hard for suppliers, because how do you acquire five new clients a year?

25:27 - Lucy (Guest)
The other thing that we've only really recently evolved. So I think the role of a BDM in events has changed so much as well. I mean, jade, obviously that was her background before Lemon Lane, but it used to be you need to pick up the phone, pick up the phone, pick up the phone, pick up the phone. That doesn't really exist anymore. And I think it's the same for lots of industries. But if you haven't got that referral and you haven't got that person who's in your corner cheerleading, the other approach and the one that we're investing know, because we're a relatively new business still is that thought leadership piece.

25:58
It's about OK, what value can we add to people?

26:01
How can we build credibility with people that don't know us? Because, you're right, it's a very trust-based industry because they're trusting us A with a lot of money and B to deliver their event and make them look good and not make them look bad in front of their colleagues. So I think that our approach to kind of marketing and sales has evolved as the industry has evolved, and it's about how can we be thought leaders, how can we be giving value to prospects, how can we be communicating who we are without having ever delivered an event to them and I think that that's critical, especially for us building a new business. We've been around five years and, yes, we've only got so many contacts, so it's about okay, how are we showing up in the market and how are we creating that value for people who don't yet know us, so that they give us that opportunity? Sorry, jade, I didn't mean to jump in, but I just thought that was an important point on sales and the events industry that it's so different now.

26:51 - Mike (Host)
But I think it's different across every aspect of buying. It's that, yeah, more and more. I spoke to a couple of guys that have written a book recently about decision confidence and what they're finding is that, across a lot of research data points, when we think we've been ghosted as suppliers, it often isn't ghosting, it's genuinely. They lack confidence in their ability to make a buying decision that won't get them fired. If someone spends $2 million on an event and it goes wrong because they picked the wrong supplier, they will get fired and therefore it's like it's too risky, it's like, all right, I won't do it, I'll go with who I know.

27:29 - Lucy (Guest)
Yeah, and we're very lucky that we've got quite a lot of client testimonials, because that obviously helps a lot as well, being able to put a potential client in front of another client. You're right, there's just so much trust that goes into it. And it's about how can you? The way you build the trust is by running an event. They trust you, so it's about finding those other ways of getting, of reassuring them. And is that about we structure our business like this so your money is safe? Speak to our client. They can tell you. Here's a case study. Here's some thought leadership we've done about event measurement. It's about sort of collating all of those touch points so that they feel reassured and give you that opportunity.

28:07 - Mike (Host)
I'm going to draw the show to a close with two things. So one is and I don't care which one of you answers this, but your most memorable event, as I discussed earlier, something that stuck out in your mind for whatever reason. And then the second is what are your kind of couple of takeaways from someone listening to this who works in or alongside the events industry about basically how to succeed in event management these days?

28:31 - Jade (Guest)
I've been at a couple of events, so it's probably more of a pattern, but it's when you have taken people to a place. You know we do, obviously, the B2B, the conference strategy pieces, but we also do a lot of sales incentives. So that's where people have, you know, worked and achieved to be taken somewhere. And you know, sometimes you're taking people to places that they would never have the opportunity to be exposed to and that's a really emotional experience. And you know, I've had people that have cried because they've been taken to a hotel that they thought they would never ever get to go to.

29:04
And this doesn't need to be like on the islands of Hawaii or somewhere glamorous, this could just be somewhere out of their day to day. And I know it's quite generic, but I have literally had people cry or thank me or you know we're part of that, that life experience for them. And you know you're sometimes stuck on the most romantic or most beautiful place in the world with a complete stranger and there's a connection made and I think you know they're probably some of the most memorable ones I've had because, you know, as a young person I didn't travel much out of Australia and I think that's why I loved this industry so much. It just opened my eyes and exposed me to so much.

29:43 - Mike (Host)
That's a great story. In their 20s, maybe 30s, who actually come from pretty tough backgrounds, who are good at selling but often haven't gone within 25 miles of their home, To go somewhere that's completely different and to have that experience is really life-changing in many ways because it opens your eyes to a different culture Brilliant.

30:05 - Jade (Guest)
And we're part of that.

30:08 - Mike (Host)
So, lucy, what are your two tips for anyone that's in this kind of industry on the supply side, obviously, or in fact you know, advice for buyers. What do you think are the kind of the couple of things where you go? These are the things to focus on to create real value in this industry.

30:23 - Lucy (Guest)
I've only got one. I think the biggest thing for me is and it comes from the, the covid era is that you just constantly have to be evolving and constantly have to be changing. The agency that stands still in this global context is the agency that's gone next year. You know, whether that's technology, whether it's ESG, whether it's measurement, whatever it is, you need to be looking at what the next thing is, and I, you know, within our company, I feel like I'm potentially always the one going what about this? We need to think about this, we need to think about this. But I genuinely feel COVID was like the great awakening of. You know, if you stay the way you've always been, you're out of here, and I feel like now I've got that constant fear that if you don't keep changing, then you won't, then you won't move on. So that's probably my main focus, jane, have you got a second? Because I feel like I only had one and he wanted two. So we have to deliver To procurement. We have to deliver.

31:16 - Mike (Host)
One that I know that you've both mentioned is the thought leadership piece.

31:19
You know, I read a book wow in 98, which I mentioned quite a lot, but it's called the Trusted Advisor and it was all about how do you build trust and one of those things is credibility, and that credibility often comes from you need to know more about the industry than I do and you need to demonstrate that through thought leadership, written pieces, through podcasts, through speaking at events.

31:41
You need to be my go-to person. So as a buyer, for example, as an ex-buyer, what I wanted was if we were thinking of doing an event next year and I was being asked to think about who might run the event for us, who might supply it, my initial instinct is I'll give Lucy a call, Because I know Lucy and I trust Lucy, and I'll say look, no budget yet, no definite, no certainty. We're going to run it, but talk to me about running a sales conference. It's global. You know what should I be thinking about? That's what you need. You need me to call you because I trust you, but to do that you've got to put in a lot of legwork for 18 months before, before I'll make the call, and that, I think, is really important still.

32:26 - Lucy (Guest)
Yeah, I think obviously the thought leadership is a really important part. But also awards, it's so, they're tedious, but gosh, you know like when, if you're a corporate looking for an event agency, your first port of call is oh, I wonder who won the CNIT awards last year, you know, and so you have to be in all of those the thought leadership piece, the speaking on panels, the going to industry events. Speaking on panels, they're going to industry events. You're right, it's all about building credibility in the space. And, yeah, thought leadership. And I think we're shocking because I feel like free women with a slight version of imposter syndrome. We're not great at going out there and banging our own drum, but I think we've had to become more confident and say no, we do know what we're talking about. Listen to us. We are actually at the forefront of a lot of the ESG stuff, at the forefront of a lot of the measurement stuff. So, you're right, it's critically important and an area that we're focusing on and trying to not have the imposter syndrome.

33:18 - Mike (Host)
Lucy, I still have it every day. I'm speaking at a conference to 300 agencies in about two weeks. I'm like, wow, well, this will be exciting.

33:27 - Lucy (Guest)
What are we going to talk about? Oh my God, as long as you know your topic, it's fine. There's nothing worse than trying to talk about something you don't know what you're talking about.

33:35 - Mike (Host)
And it's a good point. I never do that. I only speak at conferences where I'm on my core topic. Yeah, absolutely.

33:42 - Lucy (Guest)
And if you're on your core topic, it doesn't matter what people throw at you, because you feel confident that, even if you don't know, the answer that's okay, because you're still an expert, and it's okay to not know that answer. So it's the other ones that you, yeah, so you've just described why and how you've solved your imposter syndrome.

34:01 - Mike (Host)
Because you are experts. There we go, and that's a good thing. To end on Great Lucy Jade, it's been fantastic.

34:08 - Jade (Guest)
Thanks so much for joining me.

34:09 - Mike (Host)
Now, where can people find out more about you before you leave?

34:12 - Jade (Guest)
Thelemonlanecouk.

34:14 - Mike (Host)
And, of course, you're both on LinkedIn as well.

34:16 - Lucy (Guest)
Yep, both on LinkedIn, we're on Instagram.

34:18 - Mike (Host)
We've obviously got some webinars coming up so please feel free to reach out if Please subscribe so that you'll catch all the next episodes.