Leveraging Emotional Intelligence in Sales with Trenton Moss

Mike (00:04.486)
Trenton. Thanks ever so much for joining me on Hegel the B2B Sales Club podcast.

Trenton (00:35.318)
Yeah, yeah, okay.

Trenton (00:46.746)
Hey mate, good to be here.

Mike (00:48.61)
Brilliant. So we've had a, obviously we've had a pre-recording conversation. We've had a few interactions before that, and also some fun around some LinkedIn posts and some responding comments. So I'm looking forward to this because it should prove to be not only insightful, but entertaining and interesting, given who you are as a character. So for everyone listening, it will be, it's bound to be. So for everyone listening, just kind of who are you? Who are you? What's your background? What do you do broadly?

Trenton (01:08.91)
Fingers crossed.

Trenton (01:18.97)
Sure. Well, yeah, I'm Trenton. I'm the founder and head coach of a business called Team Sturka. So I supercharge agency teams with client leadership skills. So I run a program that does that. It's all about emotional intelligence and people skills. And I know a lot about the agency. Well, I spent 15 years running my own agency, actually. So I started the agency 20 years ago, almost to the day, two weeks and 20 years ago. Yeah, long time ago.

Mike (01:43.563)
Wow.

Wow.

Trenton (01:47.83)
showing my age. And I ran my agency for around 15 years, managed to grow it, and then we were acquired a few years ago. And then I exited shortly after and started Team Sturka. And one of the really successful things I did in my agency was launch a client leadership program, because anytime there was a problem with a client, anytime we wanted to upsell to a client, anytime there was a difficult conversation with a client, someone from my leadership team usually had to get involved. So that's where I first ever launched the program.

Revenue went up by about 35% from our clients. So yeah, I knew I was on to something good.

Mike (02:19.51)
Wow. Oh, wow. So before we get into anything else, just, well, so I'll come back to that in one second, literally one second. So something unusual about yourself, Trenton.

Trenton (02:31.138)
Okay, well, obviously I haven't prepared for this and you didn't tell me that you were gonna ask me this before. But I think the thing that maybe is unusual, that maybe most people haven't done this year, is I decided after COVID and homeschool, my wife and I decided to go back for more homeschool. And we took our kids out of school this year for about six and a half months and homeschooled them, but also we went backpacking. So we took our kids around a few countries in Africa and Asia and properly backpacked.

Mike (02:53.898)
Wow.

Trenton (02:59.323)
and saw a bit of the world. That's a bit different to the kind of middle class South London bubble that we all live in.

Mike (03:05.73)
Correct. So just interestingly on that kind of travel for six and a half months, what would you say was the biggest takeaway, not for you, but for your kids?

Trenton (03:15.054)
Well, I hope what they realise is that the world for almost everyone in the world does not have the same level of prosperity as we do in the UK and in particular, we as a family do in our South London middle-class pub.

Mike (03:29.377)
Yeah.

Mike (03:32.638)
Yep, absolutely. So it gives them an entirely different and very real perspective on how other people live and often how they purely survive rather than how they thrive.

Trenton (03:40.278)
I hope so.

Yeah, and where we went, most people were surviving. It wasn't about thriving.

Mike (03:46.314)
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, definitely worth keeping it front of mind, I would say. So just before we get into the questions, just if you can encapsulate in a couple of minutes, that 35% growth of an agency and around that client development program, client leadership program, one of the big issues that I see with most agencies and outside agencies, I've worked in professional services for 30 odd years.

is growing accounts. Winning it's one thing, but growing it's another. Any kind of top tips on everything you learned about what the two or three big things about growing accounts that you need to focus on.

Trenton (04:27.898)
To be honest, I think there's just one big thing, and that's to get everyone involved in it. Now, your guys doing the work, they're not going to be particularly motivated by doing sales. You're not going to give them sales targets. What they are motivated by is increasing their skills and being able to handle themselves during those difficult conversations. What I learned by running the program in my agency was you can teach these skills, like with anything.

Some people are naturally quite good at this and other people struggle a bit. But like with any skill, you can all learn it and improve. And for some people, they can get really, really good at it. And others will get, you know, at best, maybe average, but hey, that's better than what they were before. And, and the way we did it was this sustained program every, every week, literally every week, half an hour on a Friday, 99 30, you had to be there. Unless you were sick or on holiday, you couldn't book in a pitch, client work, a workshop, anything. Me, me as well.

Mike (04:58.518)
Yep.

Trenton (05:24.522)
everyone had to be there, it was mandatory. And because of the continuous nature of it, we just ground these skills into the team. And like I said, it was all about emotional intelligence and people skills. So people quite, quite enjoyed the journey that go on because they'd learned so much about themselves and increase their own self awareness. And all the skills we were teaching, they could use them with each other. So our culture really thrived because people could work together even better. And then people were using their skills in their personal life with

Mike (05:24.835)
Yep.

Trenton (05:52.666)
husbands and wives and partners and housemates and parents and kids. Which was, and I used to get all these lovely stories. So it really brought the team together. It was really real positive impact on our culture. And you know, the aim of it was to improve things with clients. And yeah, we've got that 35% uplift with our accounts.

Mike (05:54.55)
Yeah.

Mike (06:11.404)
And what kind of feedback did you get from clients just out of interest just some headline kind of like comments that you were getting from people?

Trenton (06:18.326)
I'm not sure if it was necessary about the feedback, but one of the things that we really noticed was work was being signed off more smoothly. People could go in and present their work and they could get it signed off in a way they perhaps couldn't before. And, you know, whereas a client looks at work, gives some feedback, say, can you make these changes, please? Or this is kind of against the brief, so you need to make those fixes. I would have to go away and do.

Mike (06:27.778)
Uh.

Mike (06:32.799)
Yep.

Trenton (06:43.854)
whatever, a few days of unbillable work, but three days of unbillable work times three people, that adds up. That's kind of much of your profit kind of gone that month. So that really reduced because people finally understood that when they're going into meet with a client, it's not just trying to do right by the client. It's about that win-win. It's right, Mr. Client or Mrs. Client, how do I get you to the outcome that you want to get to? And how do I...

Mike (06:52.544)
Exactly.

Mike (07:09.532)
Yep.

Trenton (07:11.434)
act in the best interest of my business and get us to a good outcome. And people were starting to go in and take a stand for both. Whereas previously they were just taking a stand for, well, I've got to please the client.

Mike (07:22.07)
So anyone that's listening, anyone that's in an agency that's facing those kind of challenges, I would suggest you reach out to Trenton about your client development programs, because that is a core problem that I think most agencies face. So let's get into the questions. So we were at a conference recently, and I was speaking. And you were very vocal about something, which really, it's important, but it was also just interesting and in some ways entertaining.

Trenton (07:40.344)
Hmm.

Mike (07:51.006)
Why is the pitch process so ridiculous in your view?

Trenton (07:54.678)
Yeah. Yes, in my view, it's not a categorical fact. It's solely my opinion. So, I mean, yes. Yeah. So, I've led, I don't know, hundreds, God knows how many, right? I've led on hundreds of pictures. And for me, I think it's categorically ridiculous and a crazy process that takes up so much time.

Mike (07:57.617)
Hahaha

Mike (08:01.398)
It is your opinion and I may have a different one to you, which is good.

Trenton (08:23.266)
so much energy and I'm not sure that the brand at the end of it necessarily gets the right agency for them. The reason I think that is that the skills that you need to win at a pitch are completely different to the skills you need to deliver the work. Pitching, I'm quite good at pitching, I think, but I'm terrible at delivering the work. I'm terrible at managing the client on an ongoing basis. We're going in pitch and I would lead the pitch.

Mike (08:45.112)
I'm sorry.

Trenton (08:50.174)
not always, but often I'd be the leader of the pitch, so to speak. And I bring the team with me who would be delivering the work as well. So the client got to meet the team and we'd all speak an equal amount of time, but make no mistake, I drilled them on what they were going to say. Right. Like I directed that and it's all about, you know, high impact kind of jazz hands, painting this really pretty picture in the eye of the beholder and, and working out, you know, if we can work out who we're pitching against, trying to work out what our USPs are and putting like.

Mike (08:51.607)
Yep.

Mike (09:02.723)
Yeah.

Trenton (09:19.486)
little digs in about, oh, well, you wouldn't want to hire someone who does this. We're in London, and they're in London. If we knew we were pitching against two agencies out of London, we would go hell to leather on, you need to work with a London agency. We can be in your office. We can collaborate. There is some truth to that. Don't get me wrong, but we would hammer that point. Then if you compare that to when you're working with a client, it's completely different. All

Mike (09:47.746)
This appears and you're working collaboratively after the long-term or ongoing long-term deep and meaningful basis. Yep.

Trenton (09:48.522)
and you're working collaboratively as a team, not with jazz hands, but on an ongoing, long-term, deep and meaningful basis to help the client achieve on their business goals. It's such different skills. So I think the charade of the pitch is mad and is a bit ridiculous. But the other thing that's kind of ridiculous is if you've got an educated buyer and a mature market where essentially the agencies you're pitching are all the same, they all kind of work the same.

and have similar prices and similar cultures and similar ways of working. And I remember when I was, the last few years of running my agency, when the industry really matured, and maybe I'd find out who we're pitching against, right? And it would be two of the usual suspects. And I knew deep down, it doesn't matter who you choose. We're the same price. We got the same ways of working. They do great work, we do great work, and we do it in roughly the same way. And you know what? Sliding doors moment. Imagine if the client picked one of those three agencies. If all of us were really busy,

Mike (10:33.218)
We are the same people. They do great work, we do great work, we do it in one and the same way. And you know what, flying gorse moment, you might as well pick one of those three agencies. All of us were really busy, we may all end up using the same freelancer to deliver the work anyway. Right. So yeah, I think that's the history that's been difficult to use. One of the ones that skills require to win a pick is holding it.

Trenton (10:45.194)
we may all end up using the same freelancer to deliver the work anyway. So yeah, I think the pitch process is ridiculous for two reasons. Number one, because the skills required to win at a pitch are wholly different to the skills required to deliver the work. And number two, often, not always, but often the brand will get in three or four very similar agencies and they could all deliver the work really as well as each other. So for me,

A much better way of doing it would be to go and talk to a bunch of agencies and get a rough idea. Just have a conversation. Get a rough idea there for how you're going to speak to five or six agencies and say, look, I'm just chatting. Just want to have a chat, tell you a bit about our requirements, what we're up to. Want to hear from you about what you do and any ideas for how we might approach this. Go and speak to a bunch of agencies, short conversation, get a rough idea of what you want and then choose three of them to come in and pay them.

to do a small piece of work with you, which might be a day-long collaborative workshop together, or it might be a week-long engagement, or something like that, but something small. Do something small with, say, two or three of them, and then you've worked with the team, right? And you've got a feel for who you work best with, because probably the reason you should choose one ahead of the other is just that chemistry, if there's people that you just gel with, and you're not gonna get that from a pitch, right? But you are gonna get that if you actually work together. And if you basically...

Mike (12:10.479)
and it's basically get rid of the guy like me.

Trenton (12:12.526)
get rid of the guy like me who's directing that pitch, who's gonna add no value to the account long-term, right? I'll rock up for some important presentations and liaise with some senior client person who might come to that presentation, but that's it, right? I'm not adding that much value to that account. So get me out the equation and see what it's like to actually work with the agency. And then you'll probably enjoy working with all of them, so just make a decision and just go with one of them.

Mike (12:38.586)
So I don't think anyone would disagree that one of the key factors for success with an agency that you appoint is your ability to work together.

I was talking to a guy yesterday who's a global branding expert. And he talks about differentiation now with brands often is around experience rather than the product itself. I think what you're alluding to here is the same is that the product is broadly quite similar but the experience can be extremely different. So you've got to find out about the experience. However, here's the challenge. So there's a couple of dimensions I think on this. One, if you're a global brand.

Trenton (13:06.382)
Yeah.

Mike (13:18.898)
and you're a $10 billion turnover CPG company, you're gonna have an awful lot of marketing work that you'll be doing, different types. You'll be doing organic, you'll be doing some social, you'll be doing media, you'll be doing all sorts. And therefore, and there's a big spend as well. So there's a big spend, you're a public company, so there's a governance issue. Do you think that approach works irrespective of scale, number of projects, type of project? It's not a loaded question, it's a genuine discussion.

Trenton (13:33.434)
Hmm.

Trenton (13:48.302)
It's a great question. It's a really great question, Mike, because what I've just described, if you're procuring an agency to come in and, I don't know, run SEO for 20k a month or whatever, then yeah, that kind of approach easily works, like easily. But once you scale that up to multi-million pounds across multiple disciplines, it's very, very different. I mean, perhaps it could work because perhaps you just...

you then break it down into those disciplines, or you break it down into the departments, because you maybe won't work with one agency, or maybe you will. So perhaps you can just, if you're thinking of procuring someone, for social and for SEO and so on and so on, perhaps you could apply that process. I mean, it's a great question, and actually I haven't thought about that before. Yeah, perhaps you can just break that down into manageable chunks.

Mike (14:40.99)
And I think the challenge on the buy side, and procurement haven't bathed themselves in glory, marketing procurement have not bathed themselves in glory in the last 10 or 20 years, to be honest. There has been a massive culture of reducing cost. And there's lots of evidence now, and in fact, a research by Kantar recently about if you look at the impact of the outcome of advertising, there's a huge premium on highly creative

really well thought through strategic ideas versus a cheaper agency that does an okay job and it looks fine. The difference is like four to one, it's colossal. So the very idea that, you know, procurement can drive costs through the floor and still get amazing outcomes is frankly ludicrous. But I think there is a challenge, which is there's a volume problem. There often aren't many people in marketing procurement and there's a lot to do.

and an RFP process is world trodden path. So you go down the world trodden path. So I think it is a challenge. I think I spoke to a couple of people recently, Gareth, who ran Weetabix. So he was the CMO for Weetabix. And he said, you know, it isn't always the right way to go down an RFP process. You know, sometimes it is better to just like kind of like find the agencies you want to work with and start working with them. Same with the guy from Kazoo.

who ran global marketing for Kazoo. So I think, yeah, there's a time and a place when you can just find the right agencies to work with based on the experiences that you have with them. But sometimes you need to run the RFP process and it's more formal.

Trenton (16:19.435)
Yeah.

Trenton (16:23.602)
Yeah, and there's also, like you're saying, there needs to be a certain level of governance because maybe 40 years ago and before that, you just brought in your mates, right? Whoever would take you out for the most expensive, most boozy, most funnest lunch. Again, that's not fair. It shouldn't be that way. Whilst I do think that the pitching process is ridiculous, I do understand the reason for an RFP.

Mike (16:27.246)
The other does.

Mike (16:36.546)
Ha ha ha.

Mike (16:42.263)
Correct.

Trenton (16:49.838)
There's no silver bullet. There's no like magical, this is the right solution because without procurement, it becomes that, that wild west and it becomes a bit sketchy and unfair in terms of how agencies are chosen.

Mike (16:58.83)
Correct.

Mike (17:03.262)
Exactly right. So let's move on to the next question, which is why will technology disrupt the sales process for agencies? It's a really interesting question. And not just AI, but beyond AI. What's gonna happen, do you think?

Trenton (17:15.05)
Oh yeah, well, it's, um, it was interesting. Cause when I was saying that last comment, I was kind of thinking, Oh, this segues nicely into the next conversation point because, because it is such an imperfect process and you can't, you can't make it perfect or even close to that because there's too many agencies out there offering the same thing, right? So how do you, how do you make it fair? But, um, what has happened for me consistently over centuries?

Mike (17:21.937)
Hahaha!

Mike (17:34.348)
Yep.

Trenton (17:43.866)
is technology literally always comes along to replace labor intensive activities. So, you look a few hundred years ago, we all worked on farms, and then technology came along and hardly any of us work on farms. Almost all of it's done with technology. So we all went and worked in factories. Industrial revolution came along, and then lo and behold, technology came along and it replaced the need for so many of us to work in factories. So we invented the services industry about 100 years ago, and we all went and worked in services.

Mike (17:49.451)
Yes.

Mike (18:10.348)
Yep.

Trenton (18:12.21)
and technology is now coming along to replace some of those services. The same thing will happen at some point for the whole sales and marketing process. Because if you think about it, the amount of time and effort we spend in sales and marketing as agencies is enormous. So let's just say like our day rates make it easy. Let's just say they're a thousand pound a day, right? Imagine if we didn't have to spend any time or resource on sales and marketing.

Mike (18:30.206)
Yes. Yep.

Trenton (18:40.558)
kind of discount can we therefore give to our client? A third, maybe? A quarter? We could really reduce rates to make things more effective. And all of that sales and marketing effort doesn't actually add value. As agencies, we're here to deliver X services and our core purpose is usually around excellence around that core service. So at some point, and I've no idea when, and I've no idea how,

Mike (18:45.599)
Moving.

Mike (18:54.626)
Right.

Mike (19:02.091)
Yeah.

Trenton (19:09.41)
But at some point, I do believe, and I think it will happen in my lifetime, technology will be created and will be invented and will cut down 90% of the sales and marketing effort that we have to go through and will connect brands to agencies at the exact time that the brand needs the work so they can just kickstart and get going. One of the other things that causes loads of inefficiencies, which has happened so much this year, is decisions not being made.

Mike (19:24.046)
brand agency at the exact time that the brand needs to work, they can kickstart and get going. Yeah. One of the other things that causes low inefficiencies is the fact that the brand is not

Trenton (19:37.398)
and brands umming and ah-ing about when to kickstart. And again, if you can get technology in place that just makes it so that the brand and the agency just get matched up as and when that brand is ready to go, and you don't have to go through all of the charades of the new biz and the marketing and all the chasing up your client to find out what's going on, and all of that stuff that ultimately doesn't add value and doesn't serve your goal as a business, technology will eventually come along, in my opinion, and get rid of all of those shenanigans.

Mike (19:40.493)
That's right.

Mike (20:06.154)
I mean, just kind of building that point, it is a very interesting point. I was reading the other day, and I've been thinking about this for a while about AI is that, so now agencies are using AI to craft the first kind of draft of an RFP response rightly, and then the smart ones are getting their subject matter experts to edit that heavily to add in the real value, the nuggets, the real insights. But then you go, okay, well,

So what? So what next? So what next is, well, RFPs are starting to be written by AI. So then you've got an RFP written by an AI engine and you've got a response being drafted by an AI engine, although it's being edited. And as the AI gets better and better, the editing from the SMEs will get smaller and smaller because the bots will learn about the expertise.

And then you have a perfectly matched system, a perfectly written RFP and a perfectly responded RFP. The problem is all five agencies that respond will read exactly the same.

And what happens then? Because now the RFP process is broken. Because to your first point, you really can't select now. Now all you've got is the chemistry meeting hour and a half pitch to rely on. Because all of the documents look the same. So it's gonna have to evolve. Because it will naturally, I don't know what pace that will happen, but I can see it happening already with clients.

Trenton (21:43.714)
Yeah, yeah, maybe the ultimate thing is we have to move to a socialist structure where the work just gets divvied out automatically. Because, like, let's be honest, again, so many of us agencies, we're just kind of the same. There's so little to differentiate us. And so if we all colluded, said, look, enough of these shenanigans, let's just divvy out the work, maybe that will be more efficient.

Mike (22:07.842)
So, wow, so now we're into an economic, political discussion and social discussion. Should there just be an agency world full of people who are very good marketers that brands work with the agency world? There is no individual company. It is just one big mass of people and you match those through a system and select the best people for the job.

Trenton (22:14.311)
Yeah.

Mike (22:34.622)
Interesting thought, Trenton. I don't think we're there yet, but I can see where your thinking's going. Ha ha ha.

Trenton (22:39.495)
No, because you also get high performing, you get storming, norming, performing process. You can't just throw a bunch of individuals together and expect them to work. There has to be something about teams in there. Yeah, I don't know. Who knows? What I do know is that technology will gradually replace...

Mike (22:48.118)
Yep. Performing exactly. Yeah.

Mike (22:57.687)
to this.

Trenton (23:05.206)
or at least in my prediction, will gradually replace more and more what new business and marketing people do because ultimately it doesn't add value to the end game. It's a means to an end. It's a means to win the client and it's extremely labor intensive. So technology will disrupt that in my lifetime, I believe.

Mike (23:16.216)
All right.

Mike (23:22.85)
So I think we should check back in six months and see what happens. Because I think it, I mean, because your earlier thought about the kind of the industrial revolution, those happened over tens or hundreds of years. I don't think we're in that world, are we? Yeah, we're in a world now whereby within months, things are changing rapidly. So yeah, so we should check back in on that definitely. So next question. So I think we've covered.

Trenton (23:26.85)
Hehehehe

Trenton (23:36.863)
Mmm. No, we...

Trenton (23:44.082)
Yeah. Yeah, it's very quick.

Mike (23:51.318)
the what happens when markets mature, because you've talked about that differentiation. What about this, how do you win without pitching using round table brand communities? How does that work? First of all, what's the concept? And secondly, how does it work?

Trenton (24:05.014)
Yeah, so when I was running my agency, we started these director level communities for digital directors and design directors, and they were very successful. And we ended up winning a lot of work without even having to pitch with big brands, like Zotesco, who else, RBS, Vodafone, Visa, all of this without pitching. And because basically, look,

Mike (24:24.959)
Wow.

Trenton (24:31.882)
New business in theory is really, really simple. All you need to do is find your target audience, the people who are the potential buyers, which obviously is really easy on LinkedIn, and then you've got to send them messages that add value to them, and get a conversation going, and keep that conversation going to continually add value to them so that when they're ready to buy, you're front of mind. Right, that's the theory, and that is, well, that's the practice, that's the practicality, that's what you do, but.

Mike (24:54.423)
Yep.

Mike (24:57.962)
It is.

Trenton (25:01.562)
Coming up with things to say to them, to keep that conversation going so you're constantly adding value to them is extremely difficult. It's really hard. What we ended up doing in my agency was we got these communities going, these two communities, one for senior design people and one for senior digital people. They were exclusive communities, so it was invite only. We'd have a roundtable every month. It was in our office. We had a good space for events there.

Mike (25:10.218)
It is.

Trenton (25:30.382)
host around 40, 50 people. So we do these round tables every month. They all came in, about 30 people across both communities would come in each month. And they didn't care about me and us, right? They were there to meet each other because they're all running teams of between 10 and a hundred people, you know, varying sizes of teams. And they were very lonely because they're the leader of the team and their boss doesn't really get what they do. And you know, no one in their team is saying, hey, good job boss. Doesn't really work that way.

Mike (25:42.74)
Exactly.

Mike (25:49.87)
They were very lonely because they're the leader of the team and they've got to start to really get what they do. Yep. No one in their team would say, hey, good job, Bob.

Trenton (26:00.31)
And they were just finding themselves just constantly banging. You know, when you're working leadership, most business, but any big business, you just feel like you're banging your head against a brick wall half the time. And the stakeholder treacle you have to wade through. So for them just coming to this round table every month and meeting their peers was just so therapeutic, but more than that, I mean, we had a structure to it. And so we got them talking about the issue. Everyone had to kind of bring a challenge that they're facing at work and then would vote for two challenges that we want to talk about. And then we spoke about those two challenges.

Mike (26:05.233)
Yep.

Mike (26:11.154)
Yeah.

Trenton (26:29.594)
So people got loads of value from it, really enjoyed it. But what it was for us was two things. Number one, it meant we were, I mean, talk about having your ear to the ground. Is that an expression? Ear to the ground? I think it is. Yeah, talk about having your ear to the ground in terms of the pain points of what our clients were facing. That was amazing. So then when we would go in and pitch on the times we did have to pitch, we could reference things that we would hear in our groups. It's like, right, we know your challenges are this, this and this, because no one cares what you say, right? They care how you make them feel.

Mike (26:39.831)
Yeah, yeah, I think it is. Yeah.

Mike (26:46.155)
Yeah.

Trenton (26:58.55)
And when you go in a pitch, you've got to try and differentiate yourself. So let's say things that are going to resonate with you and to hell with the brief, let's just like show you some empathy. So that was really helpful for us to know what was going on really in the site, in the minds of, of our target audiences. Um, but they'd then come in our office. We had posters of our work up everywhere. You know, they got exposed to our brand and even if they didn't come every month, cause you know, many of them didn't come every month, we were still emailing them every month and we'd still be sending an email shot saying,

Mike (26:58.57)
Yep, absolutely correct.

Trenton (27:28.094)
Next round table is happening on this day. Are you coming? And if they didn't reply after a week or two, they'd get a follow up sent just checking tapping on this date. Here's the sort of people who are signed up already. Are you coming? So we had a reason to reach out to these guys twice a month, every single month. So when the likes of you know, the guys at Tesco and obvious and Vodafone and so on, when they were ready to buy when they needed something, they just contacted us and what and the esteem they held us in.

Mike (27:30.827)
Yeah.

Mike (27:38.09)
Yeah.

Mike (27:52.17)
Yeah.

Trenton (27:57.258)
was very high. Someone said this to me once, so I assume this carried through to everyone else. Survey sample of one, how can it be wrong? This guy said to me, he goes, well, look at all the people you've got here. You must be really amazing if you can get them here. Again, it comes back to the skills needed for a new biz pitch. Yeah, but the skills needed to organize a community are very different to the skills needed to deliver the work, but it held us in high regard to them.

Mike (28:02.83)
Ha ha ha.

Mike (28:09.313)
Yeah.

Mike (28:14.846)
No, that's true. Yeah.

Mike (28:23.766)
That's right.

Trenton (28:25.602)
The other benefit that it gave us, you know, we're talking a lot about how to stand out from other agencies, it gave us a USP when pitching because we could talk about the community and we could talk about how, look, you work brand side, so your understanding of what's going on in the world, it's a bit blinker because you're kind of internally facing, obviously, whereas in the agency world, we're interacting with so many people, but not only are we interacting with our clients, we're interacting with all of your peers, with a hundred of your peers.

Mike (28:34.201)
Yeah.

Mike (28:45.654)
That's right.

Trenton (28:54.75)
in these groups, you can come along as well. And we can keep you up to date with what's going on with your peers. And that was a really nice USP, because going in and saying, we're a different kind of agency, we're purpose driven, and we achieved our B-Corp this year, we're very proud, and we're long-term partners to act in your best interest, and I don't know, our people, that's our real USP. Going in and saying those things is not particularly interesting, because

Mike (28:56.874)
Yep.

Mike (29:22.786)
Correct.

Trenton (29:23.59)
every other agency will say the exact same things. So having something, yeah, of course they're important. No, it's the same. You need to say things, yeah, you need to say things that pass the opposite test. And what the opposite test is, is that whatever you say, would someone else, when asked, would they ever say the opposite? And if the answer is yes, you passed. So to say like, oh, people are our biggest asset, no one's gonna, realistically, right, no agency is gonna say,

Mike (29:26.774)
I mean, they're important, they're important, but not different. But they're not, but it's not different. Correct.

Trenton (29:51.862)
Well, no, our people aren't our big assassin, right? It's a people business. So you fail the opposite test. Yeah, you can mention it if you want, but you're not gonna win a pitch on it. But for us saying, we run these communities, so we know exactly what's going on across a hundred brands with your peers, and we can keep you up to date with what sort of stuff they're up to. And were you to say that to another agency, do you got your ear to the ground with a hundred of my peers? No, I don't have my ear to the ground with a hundred of your peers. And it passed the opposite test. And one thing I-

Mike (29:53.972)
Exactly.

Mike (30:11.424)
Yeah.

Mike (30:18.035)
Exactly.

Trenton (30:21.762)
I mean, look, when you're pitching, you always want to differentiate yourself. So we're kind of talking about differentiation here. Like, you know, something like the round tables, it was a nice differentiator. But really, if you want to differentiate yourself, if you really want to, you've got to do something different at your core to everyone else. You have to come up with a wholly unique proposition that is the way that your agency operates and go to market with that. And it's very scary to do that because no one else is doing that.

Mike (30:39.072)
Yeah.

Trenton (30:51.37)
and say, like, well, what if it's a big disaster and we go bankrupt as a result and it's on me? So you kind of don't do it. But that's the way to... And there's a really great book. It's about 20 years old. You might know it. I suspect you do. It's called Blue Ocean Strategy. And it's quite a famous book. Happy days, right? So the authors of that book did a research study and they found that in their research, 14% of businesses were swimming in the blue ocean.

Mike (30:54.969)
Hahaha

Mike (31:05.046)
That's right. Yeah. If I'm using it currently with a client.

Brilliant.

Trenton (31:20.546)
And the blue ocean is where you're, you've got loads of space around you because what you're doing is genuinely a bit unique, right? And so 14% of the blue ocean, the rest of the 86% are in the red shark infested waters, right? Where it's really crowded, you're all doing the same thing, you're not standing out and it's a bit dangerous. So those 14% of businesses in the blue ocean doing something genuinely different, they were getting 62% of all the profits. And the 86% in the red shark infested seas had to share between them the meager.

Mike (31:20.746)
Yeah.

Mike (31:37.111)
Yep.

Mike (31:45.29)
Bye.

Trenton (31:50.326)
38% of all the profits left. So that's what we've got to do as agencies. We have to be brave, and we have to come up with genuinely unique propositions. Yeah, you can get a brand and consulting and come up with a strap line that sounds like nice, but you're still the same as all the other guys. What can you do in your proposition that is genuinely unique? Can you take a chance on something? And if it pays off, you could be miles ahead of everyone else.

Mike (31:50.669)
Wow.

Mike (32:06.83)
Correct.

Mike (32:16.599)
Absolutely. So which leads us nicely into the last question. So this kind of likes it must lead into that client development program agency wide, because that's you know, you've got to bring the ideas together collectively from amongst your team and from outside to come up with something different. So to kind of finish off, what is that kind of client development program? How does it work? That's what you do now, isn't it? But broadly.

Trenton (32:40.566)
Yeah, yeah, that's what I do now. So it's similar to when we first launched it in my agency, it was kind of back of a fag packet, just make it up as we go along. Whereas now, obviously, it's much more formalized. I've had around 40 businesses go through the program. But essentially, what we do and what you could, you know, if you're listening, you could potentially launch this yourself if you've got the know how. It's about giving people the skills to deal with people. So it's all around people skills, emotional intelligence and self awareness. And it's not saying to people,

Mike (32:54.079)
Right.

Trenton (33:10.43)
you need to be this way with clients because that's how I am. Because that doesn't work. And we get very frustrated as agency leaders, like, oh, God, why can't they all just be like us with clients? We know what we're doing. We can stand up to clients and we can tell clients, no, when needed. And we can upsell work and we can inspire them. Why can't they all do this? And the reason they can't all do this is, well, A, you're not teaching them. And B, you just kind of expected them to do what you do and you don't really know how to explain it anyway. And actually, a much better way is

to explain general principles of how you do things and then have people work out how are they going to implement that in a way that works for them given their communication style and their personality style. And that is, yes, it can't just be, this is what our agency leader does or what my managing partner does or whatever. It needs to be something that specifically works for you and your personality type. So you give people the tools to know what to do in certain situations.

Mike (33:44.434)
Yes. That's authentic to them.

Mike (34:00.395)
Night.

Trenton (34:09.462)
And then you allow them to work it out themselves. And look, you can have accountability. It's not like, right, you go and work it out. You then like what we do in our programs, people go and break our rooms. They have conversations about this and they come up with a plan. You know, you get people to actually work out how they're going to do this, but you let them do it in their way. And we got amazing stories in our program of like, you know, people in one story. My favorite probably is, is guys, one of my clients was pitching and the pitch was going horribly wrong. Client hated their ideas, hated them. It was just a nightmare, apparently.

Mike (34:14.709)
Yeah.

Trenton (34:38.202)
So they're all side messaging like, oh my God, what do we do? And one of the girls on the call was like, wait a minute, I think we did this in the, in the program, pulls up one of our frameworks actually goes through it, step by step whilst on the call without the client realizing, turns the whole pitch around and they won like a multi six figure piece of work off the back of it. And, and it's, if you just give people the tools to do this stuff.

Mike (34:56.557)
Well.

Trenton (35:03.522)
and then to work out how they should best implement it. They can and people want to, but the problem is that most people in your agency who aren't at senior level, you know, the mid levels or even the guys just below the senior management team, they shy away from this stuff because they're worried they're gonna screw it up because they're lacking in confidence. And they often lacking confidence because they're not sure how to deal with these situations. And you give them the tools, you watch that change.

Mike (35:28.822)
Trenton, amazing. So in summary, across the discussion we've had for like half an hour or so, what's the kind of couple of things that you'd say to any agency leader about winning more work and about building communities and about being authentic in terms of your emotional intelligence as kind of people within an agency?

Trenton (35:52.77)
Yeah, wow, so much. I think, like I said, I think if I could have my time again running my agency, I would have really reinvented us in those last few years. So we went for 15 years and from years like whatever, 10 to 15, the market became very saturated and we weren't particularly unique. And we were, we managed to stay ahead of the market for about 10 years, those last five years we didn't. And I had an idea of like a new proposition for the agency, similar but.

different and different from everyone else. I didn't have the energy or the courage to flip us into that, if I'm honest. After 10 years, I was a bit tired. There's also like, after 10 years, you're like, there's so much at stake here. I don't know if I want to take that risk because what if it goes wrong and I lose everything? I never had the guts to do it. Yeah, I think my final thing, if you're listening, if you're an agency leader, be

Mike (36:28.821)
Right.

Mike (36:33.291)
Yep.

Mike (36:40.555)
Yeah.

Trenton (36:51.962)
Come up with something genuinely unique, not just a new strap line, but something that is genuinely unique to almost everyone out there and go for it with that thing and be unique and be brave with it.

Mike (36:56.32)
Yep.

Mike (37:05.09)
Trenton, it's been amazing. Thank you ever so much for joining me on the Higg or the B2B Sales Club podcast. Where can people find out more about you?

Trenton (37:11.534)
Thank you, Mike. LinkedIn, the good news about being called Trenton Moss is that there's not many of us. There's actually another one of me in Salt Lake City. He's a network engineer. So I'm not a network engineer in Salt Lake City, I'm the other guy.

Mike (37:19.734)
Oh really?

Mike (37:25.826)
You're the other guy. Excellent, Trenton, it's been amazing, thank you.

Trenton (37:29.37)
Thank you, Mike. Really enjoyed it.

Mike (37:31.454)
So let me just stop recording.