Making the Most of Intermediary Partnerships with Andy Griffiths

Mike (05:16.148)
Good, perfect. All right, let's do that. Brilliant. So our council's in and then we'll kick off. So three, two, one. Andy, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Sales to Podcast. Great to have you.

Andy (05:18.046)
Yes.

Yep.

Andy (05:31.646)
Yeah, no thanks for having me on. Long time, listen to first time caller. But yeah, no good to be here. Thanks Mike.

Mike (05:36.98)
Brilliant, yeah, and we've known each other now on and off for probably a year or so, haven't we, I expect.

Andy (05:41.438)
I'm offended Mike's a bit like things more like to now isn't it?

Mike (05:44.66)
Is it two? via Chris, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. I guess the breakfast a while ago was our kind of first face -to -face. But yeah, so what we said we'd do is obviously we're going to talk about sales, commercial aspects, about qualification, et cetera. But before we get into all that, why don't you tell the listeners who you are, what you do, and something unusual about yourself?

Andy (05:47.134)
So yeah.

Andy (06:06.878)
okay. Don't sure. So yeah, I'm, Andy. I head up growth at, space and time. We are a leading independent, agency growth marketing is a thing. We do that through both predominantly media and tech. interesting fact about me. Okay. purely by chance was traveling around Africa many, many years ago. Now I, this isn't my first recording I've ever made. Mike, I was actually.

Condon end up going into the state radio station in Uganda to record a radio breakfast show jingle. So there you go. Yeah, yeah. Purely by chance. I was in my early to mid 20s, it would have been, I think, and I was sulking by Lake Banyoni in the mountains in Uganda because

Mike (06:38.964)
Wow! Now I've never had that before!

How on earth did you get that gig?

Andy (07:01.502)
I like everyone else that was at the backpackers place I was staying. I couldn't afford to go and do the guerrilla walk. And I was playing, I had a little travel guitar with me, was playing sort of down by the water. A bunch of locals came up to me. One told me his name was DJ Heights from the Kazadi Breakfast Show on Kachwekano FM. I'm sure you're a big listener, Mike. And the next day came and got me. Yeah, I ended up hiking through mountains for an hour and a half and then was in a bunch of breeze block buildings on the top of

Mike (07:22.58)
Absolutely. I tune in regularly every week.

Andy (07:31.07)
spectacular view out over the lakes. And he took me into a small room where there was a very old desktop running, I think Windows 97 with one of the old sort of USB plug -in microphones and yeah, recorded a jingle for his breakfast show.

Mike (07:46.196)
Brilliant, brilliant. You'll probably be, of all the backpackers, that you'll have been unusual in your experience. No one else would have done that, that's for sure.

Andy (07:55.39)
Yeah, it was good. It was good. It was a nice experience.

Mike (07:58.652)
So let's go to the kind of questions we said we'd talk about. So first of all, around intermediaries. So can you talk about the pros and cons of working with intermediaries? What are the triggers that also indicate an agency is ready to work with an intermediary? Because there's a certain time when that's right. And do you get better quality feedback when pitching via an intermediary rather than direct? Thoughts?

Andy (08:21.95)
Yeah, all good questions. So, look, I think there's, there's a couple of ups and downs to each side. So on your, on your first book pros and cons are working with intermediaries, right? So, first of all, you know, I would generally be an advocate of working with on, however they are not all created equal. So I think in the same way as you're looking at any third party, whether it's, you know, a membership or association or a trade show, you're looking to sponsor, whatever it is you're looking to find sort of the right one for you.

Some at some end of it will only do sort of 10 a year, but there will be absolute massive budgets. Some will, you know, be kind of perhaps slightly higher volume, but not particularly lucrative perhaps. So it's, it's, it's a bit of matchmaking and likewise, I would say, you know, as with any kind of third party out there, some are perhaps a bit more reputable than others as well. So it's a tricky one for that. What I would say before you, if you're an agency side and sort of thinking about, or yet to start working with one.

I would suggest you probably need to have a certain level of maturity in your current sales and marketing process and a good understanding of all the best practices in place. You want to be able to track how you're doing and know what you would expect from what good looks like. Some of the benefits from the intermediary side, generally a lot of the stuff that I know for a long time you've been a big advocate of Mike is

Mike (09:27.988)
Yep.

Andy (09:48.862)
go to moan over a beer type material is sort of taken out from the headache if you're working with an intermediary and you should rightly expect that. So, you know, you would expect to be sort of, I knew you've pitching for something that is absolutely a qualified verifiable opportunity. You know, this is not sort of a target exercise or any of the stuff that you're so good at helping people like me kind of understand if it's a sniffing contest. The other side of it as well, of course, is the generally it's a pretty well run.

process as well. The majority of, you know, opportunities I've done through intermediaries have always been sort of relatively well structured in terms of, you know, you'd expect the minimum stages, you do get a chance to meet the right stakeholders, etc. And generally, you know, I know you asked a point there on feedback, we'll perhaps come back to that in a minute. But, you know, generally sort of best practice in terms of stage by stage of a pitch process is followed.

So that's sort of the good side of it and it's a qualified opportunity as well. I think the one thing that perhaps some agencies or BD professionals overlook when they start working with them is that, or they're perhaps not prepared for, is that whilst there can be a great way of getting in front of brands to pitch for that you might not otherwise, because there's an element of matchmaking in there, where intermediaries add their value to the brands who they work with is by being able to pull together,

a decent short list of really good agencies, all of which would be a good viable option for them to pick. You know, that's how they earn their trust and reputation and sort of deliver value for the brand. So, so with that, you know, whilst it's great to know that you're going ahead with a qualified competitive pitch, it is a competitive pitch. So you won't be up against a couple of others that they've, you know, perhaps someone brand side has had someone, you know, that stumbled across and sort of helped to make up the numbers or.

Mike (11:19.572)
Exactly.

Mike (11:34.356)
Yes.

Andy (11:43.486)
know, just the incumbent that's been there and done the same thing for 15 years, you know, you will be up against your should expect to be having to fight sort of tooth and nail. And that's sort of, you know, part and parcel with it. So that's kind of the, you know, the good and bad on both sides, I guess.

Mike (11:43.732)
Exactly.

Mike (12:01.14)
Andy, how important is it to kind of build a kind of a long -term relationship with intermediary? And by that, you know, all I'm trying to get to really is obviously you could sign up with an intermediary tomorrow, but that doesn't mean that the right kind of work will come your way. Do you need to build relationships with them just as you would with the client?

Andy (12:21.502)
Absolutely. You know, the idealist that occasionally sort of arises in me every year on a very rare, I'm going to tend to her more than the cynical, but the idealist would like you to think that kind of, if you pay your membership or your, you know, your, your, your, your feet and intermediary and you supply everything upfront in terms of all your collateral case studies done a great job of through their onboarding process, which typically will be around. What have you done? What's your experience? What is a qualified lead in your eyes? Who are you looking to speak to all that stuff?

Mike (12:32.724)
Ha ha ha.

Andy (12:50.942)
You would like to think then that you could just, you know, perhaps feet up and the relevant leads will just come sort of flowing into you. But as you know, as anyone who's worked on the media owner side, in terms of trying to be sort of front of mind, the relationship piece is still very, very key. Not least because, you know, there's, there's incremental value, I think, to be, to be gained from intermediaries if you, if you work them properly in many ways, whilst it's not, you know, perhaps enough to

justify the entirety of your subs if you're not going to win any business from them. There's also normally incremental sort of marketing opportunities. So there's normally a big opportunity to align yourself with them and make sure that you're continually sharing your work, whether that is thought leadership, every single time you've got a new piece of work or case study, particularly if it's any kind of emerging area of business that you as an agency are trying to grow or develop is really, really key.

And regular contact to them is good as well. A good sort of, you know, warning sign for anyone when they're sniffing around with intermediaries, if they don't have a particularly good sort of comms or relationship process in place, that they're at least, you know, claiming to adhere to if you sign up to them, is sort of a bit of a red flag really, because I think kind of understanding and having a relationship with your point of contact there is very, very key. Ultimately, many of them will work whereby, you know, they have

Mike (14:14.292)
Yeah, yeah.

Andy (14:16.734)
perhaps on one side of the table are those handling briefs and brand opportunities and those that handle the agency relationships. So you want these people to sort of, you know, make sure they're singing your virtues and putting their hands up for you on your behalf, really.

Mike (14:32.02)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, also, I do know, I mean, I've not worked through the intermediary market myself, but I know that not all, but quite a number are a pay to play platform. Is that kind of generally sort of true?

Andy (14:37.662)
Thanks.

Andy (14:46.398)
Yes. Yeah, I would say the vast majority. Yeah, anyone who is, you know, a true intermediary, if you like, and not therefore more on the portal side. You know, there are portals out there who will who will disguise or dress themselves up as sort of a quasi intermediary of some sort. However, generally, you know, the commercial angle for them is going to be around, you know,

Mike (14:49.364)
Yeah. So as in you pay your subs. Yeah.

Andy (15:11.998)
incremental investment to appear top of listings or you know, it's almost like an advertising piece really. So the true intermediaries will effectively, normally there is a membership or subs and it varies on scale. Some will offer tiered levels of membership. Generally, for my personal view, that's a bit of a red flag. You know, you don't really want to be climbing up to something where you are instantly

knowing you're going into a deck of cards where some are more valuable to them than others. So I think from the integrity perspective, you want to make sure that whilst you've done your best through the relationship management piece with your point of contact to make sure you're front of mind and doing a great job of them being aware of the great work that your business does for brands, it's important that you feel you're at least in some sort of level playing field. But yeah, you're quite right, Mike. Normally it's a pay to play basis.

and you pay up your subs and then you have an expectation of, you know, some will potentially quote, on average our members receive X or Y opportunities. But I think where the disconnect can sometimes be or where it can sort of, for BD professionals, where they need to manage internal expectations is of course that, you know, it's something that I always sort of defend any intermediaries that I have worked with is the, you know, whilst

you have rightly an expectation to have access to and a good volume of relevant opportunities to pitch for. Ultimately, they're not responsible for you winning them. So I think the other thing, when you're managing expectations and sort of potentially looking at or you're speaking to kind of your budget holders internally and you want to sort of advocate for, you know, starting to work with intermediaries investing in the pay to play basis, you know, it's important to manage expectations that success looks like.

a volume of a certain value of a certain quality of opportunities. And like I said, you know, there's there's some respect to have there that you'll be expecting to pitch in a more competitive playing field.

Mike (17:13.268)
It's interesting, Andy, about conversion rates, following that thread. Do you see the conversion rates as being better for opportunities you've pitched through intermediaries, or is it better if you go direct? Have you got any data on that? You don't have to get the exact numbers, but just broadly, do you know which works best for you?

Andy (17:33.822)
From our experience, it's skews. For example, there'll be some where we are, you know, again, the benefits of intermediaries, there's nothing that we've been invited to pitch for and gone through to that hasn't been a really relevant lead. There's been none of those where we've been sat on the fence having to do the head versus heart of should we pitch for this? Is it really qualified, et cetera? You know, will we win it? You know, so they've all been good.

Mike (17:56.34)
Right.

Andy (17:59.102)
Where that has changed for us is there's been a skew between if something's in our real heartland of expertise, generally, we'll see that payoff in terms of win rate. Not least because you've been, that there is an element of trust or a quality perception that is taken off the table before you even meet the brand because you've been well match made, if that makes sense.

Mike (18:15.764)
Right.

Mike (18:28.436)
Exactly.

Andy (18:28.99)
There's an element that anyone they speak to that when a brand gets to those some of the initial chemistry sessions and is first introduced to you, that actually the quality control piece has been done for them and that we come sort of vetted and verified by the intermediary. So kind of it's in some ways you don't have to quite worry so much about that aspect of it. In other ways where in other aspects where we've looked at say the vertical or size or value of client,

Mike (18:44.852)
Yeah.

Andy (18:57.886)
And then intermediaries perhaps the best way to describe it, probably that the opportunity could be counted as an incremental reach opportunity for us that we might not otherwise have come across. Again, that can be sort of, we can see our win rate dip, if anything, on that instance, where we are up against people who perhaps are such a strong match or equally as good that, you know, the difference in terms of, I think it's a harder choice for brands.

Mike (19:21.268)
Exactly.

Andy (19:25.342)
because the quality, I think most brands that I've spoken to post pitch or that I've been in touch with and have used in intermediaries in the past will generally say that the competition is much higher. Quite often after initial first round of pitch or even chemistry session, sometimes one or two get cold. Typically in intermediaries, I think that's harder for them because like I said, the way that a good intermediary will add their value.

is by not just doing a really great job on the ops side of running a really good coherent pitch to get a quality result from it, but the quality of the agencies they're meeting is consistent and high.

Mike (20:03.252)
Exactly. So let's just move on to the next question, which is just very briefly. What do you think of the pitch positive pledge? Has it got teeth? Does it add value? What are your kind of thoughts on it? Do you want to explain it first of all, roughly?

Andy (20:21.054)
Yeah, so for anyone who's not familiar with it and at the risk of you turning when I start to kind of, you know, perhaps critique it a little bit in a minute, if anyone is listening, whether they are brand or agency side, I would still massively encourage them to go and check out and sign up. Pitch Positive Play is basically a commitment to a set of standards and practices that ensures a

Mike (20:33.204)
You

Andy (20:48.158)
fair and quality output for both the brand and the, the agency pitching, through any sort of tender process. So it's stuff that you would, you would like to believe would always be the case anyway, such as it is a genuine opportunity, such as, you know, you will get a proper brief, you will get a fair amount of time to deliver the work. You will definitely get feedback, et cetera. All the kind of stuff that you would like to think is kind of,

goes, I would say a little bit beyond just professional courtesy, but is, you know, best practice and you would like to think from an integrity and ethics perspective would be there as part of any process you'd want to go with anyway. So I think I think in many ways, it's something that when it first launched, you know, pretty three years ago, I think it was now is something that there was a lot of appetite for, and probably a sense of relief at last kind of thing.

I think the difficulty on your second point, that question is, does it have teeth is probably ultimately no. You know, and this is where I claim all opinions of my own, et cetera. But I think that the challenge with it is that the demand is so much more on the agency side because that's where the power balance is perhaps at its most unfair.

I think that the biggest giveaway for me is that of the what sort of three, 350 signatories of which space and time are one that are so far currently kind of signed up to it. I think only about 50 of them are brands, which I think is quite telling in terms of where the demand is or where the need to adhere to it is. And generally those brands that are signed up are large enterprise size clients who will have very full fledged professional, you know, procurement.

engines and practices. So I think it's a really, really difficult one. It's like the old adage of, you know, for as long as there are, you know, brands who stand to benefit from doing a, you know, information gathering tender or a price check tender.

Andy (22:59.23)
or have no intention of, you know, leaving their incumbent, but are forced through a procurement schedule to go to pitch for as long as there is a benefit for brand being able to get away with that. Yeah. Then I think for a long time, we'll see that. And I think the real challenge, and this is where I have to take some accountability as well is, you know, I speak of a half my myself, but also for I imagine a number of agencies that might have signed up or are yet to sign up, you know, how likely am I to

Mike (23:07.7)
Yep. Cause of governance. Yeah.

Andy (23:28.19)
really walk away from an opportunity if I believe it's a qualified one just because they're not signed up to it.

Mike (23:36.308)
Exactly. Yeah. So you would argue, I mean, just kind of, yeah, I mean, a force for good for sure. It's a good thing. I think it would be hard to say it's a bad thing, but does it have teeth, I think is the challenge. Yeah, exactly.

Andy (23:37.982)
Therein lies the challenge.

Andy (23:52.766)
I think what I would encourage anyone to do who has signed up or if they are, you know, thinking so or just in there, or even if they're sort of their day to day conversations with stakeholders and procurement brand side is just to ask, is it a pitch positive tender? The majority of answers I have when I ask that is no, what's that? But it's an education opportunity. And it's also sort of a chance to, you know, if you use that

Mike (24:15.86)
Right.

Exactly.

Andy (24:22.398)
you know, as a, you know, as a vehicle really for kind of setting out what your expectations are. So, it's a really great initiative. Lots of brands or, you know, a number of leading brands such as X, Y, and Z, whoever it might be have signed up. And it's a commitment that, you know, it's a genuine opportunity. You can almost use it as a way of asking your questions for you, if you do it that way, but it's, you know, it is, it is still kind of, I think a good thing to.

Mike (24:43.764)
Yes.

Andy (24:48.83)
to publicize and make a point of. I think the initiative is absolutely bang on. I think it needs to be addressed, but your point on teeth is a much harder one to solve, I think.

Mike (25:01.46)
Yeah. So let's move on the conversation to differentiation. So in your experience, how do you differentiate your agency when pitching? And why has it become increasingly difficult from my perspective, certainly, to tell the difference between agencies? Everything's becoming very similar. Doesn't mean the quality has gone down, the opposite, but it's quite hard to differentiate between agencies.

Andy (25:28.51)
Yeah, that's a really good. So it's a really, really good question. And I'm glad you mentioned, you know, the difficulty of, you know, discerning that from your side, because I think, yeah, one of the things we always find anytime I have a chat with you might is so interesting is getting that insight from the procurement side of things, in terms of how do you distinguish and whilst, you know, however many decades or at least sort of one at least, you know, people in my role have always been, you know,

While our procurement always try and put us in a box where they just want to compare what we'll charge for X, Y, or Z. I think in many ways for marketing procurement to try and really differentiate and measure one agency against another is increasingly tricky. I would suggest that where I'm seeing, where things have shifted over the course of my career is I would say even perhaps as...

as recently as five years ago, I think there was still an option where you would be able to win a pitch or communicate some kind of differentiation or competitive advantage by the quality of the how you deliver the service you deliver. So for example, if it's about capability, as I said, you know, we're a media and tech agency. And whilst I am admittedly very biased,

You know, we do an amazing, amazing work with, you know, up with it, with our paid media, brand media. We are, I would go toe to toe with absolutely anyone in the market any day on our tech front. Our tech division has been an absolute powerhouse for us, but we are not the only people in the market that do really good media planning and buying. We're not the only people in the market that have great tech expertise. So to your point, where'd you come up? Where'd you come differently? I think the way of employing that capability and the way that you,

Mike (26:57.908)
You do. Yeah.

Andy (27:22.302)
deliver that capability for a brand is increasingly the differentiating factor. So five years ago, I was pitching, it would have been about sort of, we've got our own in -house programmatic trading desk rather than outsourcing, or it might have been, you know, what level of, I don't know, partner you are with Google or, you know, the volume of it you are, because a lot of it was more kind of manual, where we've shifted much more towards an algorithm and AI based tech solution.

is it's more how do you employ and leverage that opportunity for a client. So I think approach the positioning of your business and the ability to tangibly communicate those things is critical now. Because I think from your side of the table, Mike, otherwise, what is there really to sort of leverage between?

What I would say that does add with your second point, why is it becoming increasingly difficult to tell the difference is because to understand that you need to meet them. So I think the ability to really understand and communicate differentiation through a written RFP or ITT process is incredibly difficult.

Mike (28:40.116)
So a couple of things to add Andy. Yeah, yeah. No, no, carry on.

Andy (28:41.054)
I'll give you a quick example on that one. Sorry, go on. So I was going to elaborate a little bit. So for example, you know, whilst, you know, we like some of the people in the, in the industry are really good with our media, really good with our tech, et cetera. For us, the difference is how we lay out, our ethos and how we approach the use of that, that capability. And for us, it's, it's all about sort of, a huge amount of commercial empathy.

with our clients. And it's the moment when I talk through that. I'm not going to give away all the special sauce for everyone on the list. And if there's any brands listening, give me a shout. I'll happily talk you through it. But I think, you know, if there's a big, big moment, you know, I think the differentiation in terms of positioning and that's the moment where you're in the room in this sort of initial chemistry call and you have that, you know, people in the brand lean forward and start really listening and you can tell you've got a piece of differentiation for them.

Mike (29:23.284)
Hahaha

Andy (29:39.902)
Because by and large, if you're just coming down to a who will deliver my paid search, paid social, et cetera, cheapest, or who still has the same level of ability, who's the same level of partner with Google, et cetera, then instantly your pool of agencies goes from one or two to pretty much everyone in the UK.

Mike (30:03.124)
Yeah, exactly. So a couple of things just to get your thoughts on Andy. Again, kind of speaking as an ex buyer, I think brand is still important. You know, the quality of the brand, it stands for something. I think those days are less than they used to be, but certainly, you know, the old days for tech, you know, whoever got fired for buying IBM was a phrase. So I think brand does still carry, you know, to an extent.

Andy (30:06.686)
Mm.

Andy (30:25.406)
Right, right.

Mike (30:30.548)
I think the experience during the process is really important about how you engage, how you interact, how responsive you are, how you answer questions, how thoughtful you are in terms of pushing back. I think that shows quite a lot of, if not differentiation, certainly more of a front runner attitude than that's one or two rather. And then the third one I've mentioned is...

the quality of the subject matter experts that you bring to the table. So, and there's a bit of a twist here. You can get subject matter experts in the pitch process who have brilliant subject matter experts, but are very poor communicators. And that's a big problem if you're buying because you're like, can I work with this person? They seem brilliant, but can I work with them? And if the answer's no, then that's probably gonna go against you. So having senior people with...

brilliant expertise that have gravitas, brilliant communication skills. The ability to solve a problem interactively is a real test in a live pitch where maybe I'm in one of my more difficult moods and I'm asking some questions and the person on the side has the ability to probe, shape the question with me, reframe the question, talk about how you might approach that. That's a really

high -end skill. I think if agencies have that, that can certainly set you apart. What are your thoughts?

Andy (32:03.23)
So I think that's really valuable input from you on that, Mike. I think that's, it's really critical, right? So your point on how was the experience? So I always tend to err on the optimistic side of whether we might be successful in tender. If after leaving a pitch, it's actually felt not like we presented to someone there, but we've just worked on a problem together collaboratively.

I think it's a really key part of that because it's almost like the fact that you're already doing it together, which is really key. I'm going to throw a challenge back at you now, Mike, in terms of the subject matter expert thing, because it's a really, really critical thing here, this, right? So I think there is a degree of transparency and ethics when you are selling to a marketing buyer.

Mike (32:29.204)
Yes, exactly.

Mike (32:39.892)
good.

Andy (32:54.846)
that they should rightly expect to meet the people who will ultimately be working on their business. Now, therein comes a bit of a challenge. So for example, you can have some, to your point, some really technically skilled subject matter experts who can read the matrix, all the rest of it, right? But that is their value to us as a business.

We haven't necessarily employed them to be an incredible presenter. In actual fact, I'd rather 100 % of their expertise was in their ability to, maybe it's their data architecture work they're doing, whatever it might be. But therein lies the challenge and I think kind of leans some of the pressure back towards agencies to bring in the people in the blazes and the, you know, the...

with the jazz hands that can then go and do a good job presenting. And I think this is always the challenge, right? If I was to push you on a response and say, I was coming to you for some consultants who work, because they have a really big tender, they've got a pitch, and I really want your input and thoughts on who should I bring into the room? What do you see that balance between, yep, I'm going to really mark down against someone I'm meeting who ultimately I'm never going to speak to again, versus,

I don't care if I never see them again so long as I can get a really great response from the agency of clearly communicating that they can solve my problems for me.

Mike (34:27.636)
So if I think about it's a good pushback and it's really good pushback. If I think practically about when I was buying and I've bought some stuff at some scale, the subject matter expert became really important. And that is about the communication skills. I'd give an awful lot of latitude to someone who is a deep domain expert, say a data architect, who clearly is as

been studying their craft for 10, 20 years, very, very deep expertise in a particular area that we happen to need access to. If their communication skills aren't brilliant, but it's clearly obvious that they are the expert in the room, I'm fine with that. I'm like, that's absolutely right. You've brought the right person to the table. You knew we were going to ask that question. You brought a deep expert into the room. They've really gone through the...

Andy (35:22.718)
Yeah.

Mike (35:25.62)
all the angles, they've given us insights we had never thought about. They've brought foresight to the table, stuff we hadn't even understood. And if their communication skills aren't great, that's fine by me. So I'm like, I know when you're delivering, that person will be working with an account director or a project manager. And if there's summary reports required or exec presentations required, that'll all get handled. But I want to know that you've got the expertise.

And that to me is, I think if I was advising you on a pitch, I'd say, bring that expert in, but make sure the audience knows this is a deep domain expert. You know, we've worked with them for many, many years. but don't expect them to be the brilliant articulate presenter that, you know, you might find in yourself, Andy, or in, or in one of your colleagues, because that's not their skill. They're bringing deep domain expertise.

Andy (36:21.278)
One of the most, that's a really good response. One of the most, there's times when I've sat on the fence about it, right? I think kind of, you know, it's conspicuous by its absence if no one in the room is going to be working on the business. You know, even if it's not a prerequisite from the brand.

I think it's a point, it's part of, I think our ethos of how we would work transparently with it, with a brand that we feel we should do that anyway. one of the most powerful moments I think I've seen in a, yeah, I think one of the most powerful moments I've seen in the pitch when we took a, you know, a deep subject expert, along, and you know, they, yeah, don't tend to be particularly client facing. And, we talked through how to sort of, how did this, they, they,

Mike (36:53.044)
No, definitely. I completely agree with that. Yeah.

Andy (37:13.406)
when it came to their moment in the pitch to present, they just mentioned, look, I don't tend to present very often. I get quite nervous about it. So please bear with me. And it was the most disarming thing. It was a really powerful moment in the pitch and where out of nowhere, what you had was instant empathy with some of the marketing team as well. I'm like, no, thank God you said, I do too. It was a real sort of meeting in the middle moment. So I guess the other thing as well, Mike, is that what it does to you though, is it puts the emphasis back on

Mike (37:28.02)
Brilliant.

Andy (37:42.846)
What's the quality of the account management going to be to help make sure they can translate and communicate and be that go between on that deep expertise, you know, translating that capability into, you know, a solution for me, for my issues.

Mike (37:49.46)
Exactly.

Mike (37:57.524)
Definitely. And then we had an example in an agency I work with, who are very deep SEO experts in e -commerce. And we had a situation whereby we'd actually won this piece of work. We were working with the client and they specifically said, look, I want to talk to the SEO expert. I want to talk to your SEO strategists. I know who they are. You know, they seem to be in the background. Cut out the project manager, cut out the account director. Can I just talk to them directly during the program that we're working on?

because they had such deep domain expertise. And he said, it's not that I want to get rid of the PM, the opposite, but I just want to have a one -on -one conversation with the person that knows exactly what they're talking about in this particular area. And that's why we need to see them in the pitch.

Andy (38:32.546)
Yeah.

Andy (38:43.23)
Yeah, that's a really good example. I guess the other challenge as well to it though, from the agency side of it is, where you to do that, you can easily end up taking about 10 different people into a boardroom. If you think about scope of vision channels, requirements, etc., it's easy to get a bit carried away. And, you know, as you're aware, the investment on the agency side into a piece of business is...

Mike (38:44.724)
So I think it's really important.

Mike (38:56.148)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it can't be a cast of thousands.

Mike (39:04.532)
Exactly. But I'd say as a principal, Andy, I think if you're pitching as a principal, I would say you have to bring the team that's going to be delivering. Because it's one of my key questions as a buyer. I was always like, is this the team that will be delivering? I don't mean all of it. So I don't expect Andy you to be on the account every day, but I need to know that at least, you know, 70 % of the team that's in that room we're going to be working with. Otherwise my fear is

You've picked the A team and we get given the B team. And that was always a big fear when we were buying services.

Andy (39:36.958)
Right. And I've been, of course, I've been in agencies where, where, or spoken to people where you, where you hear the, who's the team that will win the business. And that's the thing where you kind of end up with that straddling between, you know, what you don't want to do is kind of fall into, it's not something we would do, but I've, you know, I have come across areas where it's, it's been a bit more apparent that what you get is, you know, sort of you sell a proposition.

and then it very quickly ends up onto a very junior exec or perhaps it's not as well staffed. But I guess from your side, you're able to qualify things like that by understanding average client churn rate and things like that as well.

Mike (40:24.916)
Yeah. I mean, and I have absolutely scored down and kind of crossed out, services companies that have come in and not pitched the team that's going to do the work have come in with the pitch team. I found out, cause I've asked the blunt questions and they've got nowhere to go. And I'm like, well, that wasn't a very smart move because now basically I'm going to just assume that everything you're saying

Andy (40:49.15)
Yeah.

Mike (40:53.268)
This is the brilliant pitch team that goes around all the clients and pitches the work. What I want is the people are going to do the work. So it's a really important point, I think. Take at least 50 to 75 % of the team that are going to be working on it, take them into the meeting.

Andy (40:59.582)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, agreed.

Andy (41:09.374)
Yeah, perfect. But if nothing else, Mike, I mean, I'm kind of the forecast for you today has reassured me that we're doing something right.

Mike (41:10.9)
Anyway, I'll get off my hobby horse now, Andy.

Mike (41:18.644)
You're doing many things right, Andy, you're doing really well. So last question, because I'm conscious of your time. How does qualification work in space and time? And how do you manage tension between the board's view and MBD's view of opportunities being qualified in or out? Because I know there's often inherent tension, not in your agency specifically, in all agencies, that's often a tension.

Andy (41:42.59)
Yeah, look, we do lead score across a selection of criteria. So generally, we're looking at, can we do the work? Are we biting on something that we will ultimately not do a really great job on? We have to have the confidence that from an ethical standpoint and from a competency standpoint that we're going to absolutely smash the brief and

provide value to whoever's buying us. That's always been sort of forefront. You know, we've, we've worked really hard as we've, we've grown and we've been very lucky that, you know, against most agencies in the, in the space for the last sort of few years, we're, you know, continue to grow sort of double digit every, every year. So it's been, we've been in line with that. We've been very, very careful to try and retain something very key to us, which has always been our client retention.

Mike (42:30.74)
You did amazingly well, Andy. Yeah, you have. Yeah.

Andy (42:39.358)
I think the majority of clients, I think average, average 10 years still something like about eight and a half years, which in agency land is punchy. So, you know, we've had, had a hold onto that. So we always go first and foremost, will we do a great job? Are we really confident of that? We also look at, you know, can we do it profitably? Right. Because we're not a charity ultimately. So we, you know, we are here to provide a livelihood to the people that work for us. So, you know, we always look at kind of the commercial element of it. We also then look at kind of extracurricular value, if you like.

So for example, is it a vanity brand? Is it perhaps, does it perhaps score a little lower in a couple of other categories, but it's a really good stepping stone for us as we try and grow our expertise or portfolio of work and say a new vertical or a new capability that we have that kind of other aspect to it. And then we also just double check, you know, is there any conflict of interest that's going to harm any of our existing clients by doing so in terms of reputation?

So that's kind of the initial upfront. Outside of that, obviously, that all goes on the assumption that we try not to keep it just to those sort of four pillars really, because otherwise you can end up sort of, you know, it becomes, you can go too far away from your gut instincts on things sometimes. Where we try and do a little bit more out of that, and this can sometimes fall into the second part of your question about the tension between sort of, you know, desire to go from it from board and.

concerns on my side, perhaps, and whether it's genuine or not, is a lot of the stuff that you've taught me over the years around trying to discern how legitimate an opportunity is this. So, you know, there's, and a lot of this comes, as you know, to kind of really good questioning up front. We will always try and ask diplomatically, a favorite question of mine is, on a scale of one to 10, what's your desire for change?

Mike (44:21.844)
Exactly.

Andy (44:29.982)
Stuff can be a bit of a giveaway in terms of are you looking to keep with the incumbent or not? You know, discerning that there is, you know, it's all the stuff that you already wear at micro, most of your listeners will be around kind of making sure it is, you know, this is not just a pricing exercise or this isn't purely because of procurement schedule. And it's a genuine opportunity that's been well thought out. You're going to get a chance to speak to the correct stakeholder, all those kinds of bits of best practice as well.

Mike (44:37.748)
Exactly.

Andy (44:57.79)
where I think the tension piece comes in between boards view and new business directors is difficult, right? Because the board's role quite rightly is to drive my performance as hard as possible, right? They are there, my accountability is to them and to my target and to deliver as well as I can and over deliver wherever possible.

I would suggest, I certainly put myself in this category, and whilst not all salespeople are, I think kind of, you know, a lot of us are, is that quite often we want the people pleased as well. You know, we are, we are, a lot of us are predisposed to want to try and achieve. The very nature of what we do is we're set a challenge every single time. There's a, we know there's a good chance we might not win a piece of business, but we're there to sort of try and overcome it.

That's a lot of what our role is. So when we are pressed from the board and given a, let's see if we can do it anyway, it can be quite tempting at times to go, yeah, you never know and get caught up with the aspiration as well. I think this is where it comes to a real head and heart piece. I think it's really good that a board is quite often a couple of steps aside from an actual opportunity because they can be perhaps more objective of it.

Mike (46:02.036)
Yeah, yeah.

Andy (46:19.102)
And you need that kind of clarity because there are times when you do want a second opinion or you want to make sure that you're going to have senior backing because you know that the work and effort involved will be a significant investment from the business. So having that kind of agnosticism, if you like, from the board on it is good. Where I think it gets tricky is where, you know, you are facing pressure from the board against perhaps your better judgment to

you know, to go ahead with something or not. And that's where it gets difficult because, you know, like I said, a board's role is to get the most possible you can out of their assets. I'm not saying not being advocate of management being slave drivers. And, you know, I wouldn't have been at Space and Time for over five years if my board were, but I think kind of ultimately they are looking to try and get the greatest output as possible out of the business as a whole. So this is where kind of, you know, the encouragement to

Mike (47:03.092)
Yeah, yeah, no show.

Andy (47:16.446)
You know, just one more or if we do this, perhaps we can manage X or Y resource is always going to sort of be an aspect of it. So I think there's always going to be a little bit of friction in there, but this is where kind of having the kind of relationship and communication between sort of whoever's looking after your new business and marketing and your board is so key. And I think kind of, you know, if you are willing to really dig your heels in and stake your reputation on, no, look, this is not one for us to go for.

Likewise, yes, I know that we're really swamped with work and this will be a big additional ask of incremental work on resource, but I really think it's a great opportunity and we should take it. Or yes, I know it's right on the knife edge of profitability, but it's going to score so high in other areas. You need to be able to back yourself and advocate for going for it as well. It does work both ways, I think. In terms of how we manage it, I think it's being able to have that point of understanding what your process is for scoring.

Mike (48:08.82)
Definitely.

Andy (48:15.998)
when head and heart collide, you always have that aspect to fall back on that is a slightly less subjective aspect to it, if you like, or subjective rather aspect to it.

Mike (48:27.124)
Exactly. Yeah. And having that scorecard in place, and having, you know, some rationale behind why it scored, you know, 6 .8 rather than an 8 .8 and what that means. it, it just all adds to the evidence base. Ultimately, you know, you and the board can decide we're going to go for it.

Andy (48:44.094)
I'd be an outright fraud, Michael, sorry, I've got a bit of delay. I'd be an absolute outright fraud if I said to you that every time I was scored one that said, no, we shouldn't go for it, I didn't still have a bit of a punt every now and again. But, you know, I think kind of having that sort of rule of thumb guide is key to make sure that kind of you have something that is, yeah, a little bit more objective around sort of head versus heart on these things.

Mike (49:00.212)
Yeah.

Mike (49:14.036)
Bit more robust. I like the head versus heart. That's absolutely true. Andy, it's been amazing. Thank you ever so much for joining me.

Andy (49:18.174)
where it comes down to, right? Not so much, it's been a pleasure, as always.

Mike (49:25.076)
That's been thoroughly enjoyable. Thank you. Where can people find out more about you and about space and time?

Andy (49:30.398)
Yep, so you can find me on LinkedIn. My sort of, I guess my, I can't even think of the word for it now. The profile URL, sorry, is linkedin .com forward slash in and it's forward slash andygriff, G -I -W -F forward slash. More importantly, please come along to spaceandtime .co .uk. You can touch us via the website there. Or again, of course you can find the company on LinkedIn.

We are regularly posting sort of thought leadership bits and pieces and stuff to hopefully help marketers navigate what is an increasingly complex and horrendously tricky world.

Mike (50:11.604)
Andy's been brilliant. Thank you very much indeed.

Andy (50:13.95)
Cheers, Michael Best.

Mike (50:17.46)
So let me just stop recording, hold there a minute.