Massive Insights on Content Syndication and Lead Generation with Freya Ward

Michael Lander (00:00.185)
Freya. Thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B sales for podcast. Great to have you.

Freya Ward (00:11.234)
Perfect, sounds good, thanks Yes, that was correct.

Freya Ward (00:24.92)
Thanks for having me, Melik.

Michael Lander (00:26.657)
And it's the first recording of the year. So it's now we're recording on the 6th of Jan. This will go out, I think, towards kind of mid end of February. So, yeah, it's been great. We were just talking about before. Great to have a break over the festive season and just relax and see our family and friends, which has been great. Exactly. I'm planning ahead for the next year. So without further ado, do you want to just say to the listeners, who are you? What do you do? And something unusual about yourself.

Freya Ward (00:42.926)
Absolutely, lots of time for reflection over the Christmas period,

Freya Ward (00:56.59)
Yeah, of course. So my name is Freya Ward. I'm the Global Sales Director at Headly Media. We are a B2B lead generation company that specialise in digital content syndication. I have been working in the B2B tech space from marketing through to sales for over a decade now. So showing my age there a little bit, yeah. So I've been in the space for some time and I've seen kind of the evolution of the sales approach from kind of...

Michael Lander (01:13.602)
Well.

Ha ha ha ha.

Michael Lander (01:22.136)
Hmm.

Freya Ward (01:23.448)
cold calling face-to-face all the way through to more digital channels during that time. Something unusual and interesting about me. So I did have to dig a little bit deep for this one because like any kind of icebreaker, you're challenged with trying to find something interesting. And actually I took a more personal approach. So something I'm really passionate about is giving back to the community and giving back to individuals just in the world really.

Michael Lander (01:34.242)
Ha ha ha ha!

Freya Ward (01:51.744)
And something I do is I volunteer for a UK charity called Age UK. And I get involved in their telephone befriending service. So every Monday evening, I have a phone call with an elderly person who's in a kind of lonely space, same person, and we build a relationship through talking on the phone. And I absolutely love it. So I thought that was a little bit unusual. I don't know if you've had anyone that does that before.

Michael Lander (01:56.92)
Cool

Michael Lander (02:08.055)
Yeah, yeah.

Michael Lander (02:12.076)
Brilliant.

Michael Lander (02:16.278)
No, that's amazing. No, I haven't. No, I think that's incredible. Because I've been reading a lot last year about what makes people happy in their elderly years. I mean, I'm 60 now. So, you know, in the next 30 years, how do you maximize your happiness? And unsurprisingly, it came down to being with your family, having a social connection, doing exercise.

Loneliness is a horrific problem, I think.

Freya Ward (02:51.694)
Do know what Mike, I get so much out of it as well. actually my grandparents, I lost my grandparents a few years ago and having that connection, there is so much to learn from older generation. You they live in a very different world but there was similar, there's similar grounding, there's similar morals and things like that. And just having that weekly check-in, that connection and that...

Michael Lander (02:59.705)
Okay, then.

Michael Lander (03:04.759)
Yes.

Yes.

Freya Ward (03:15.094)
accountability, really. It's so enriching. I learned so much. It's I guess it's kind of almost like a form of therapy, if you like. Just chatting about TV programs, the weather, whatever it might be, talk about Royals, all sorts. And it is an incredible service that is all done by volunteers, 30 minutes a week. Yeah, it's amazing. I can't recommend it enough through Age UK. But yeah, it's something I really enjoy and hopefully

Michael Lander (03:16.439)
Yeah.

Michael Lander (03:22.476)
Yes, exactly.

Michael Lander (03:35.874)
Brilliant.

Freya Ward (03:42.862)
the person I've befriended through the service enjoys it as well and gets as much enrichment out it as I do.

Michael Lander (03:48.993)
No, brilliant. And obviously for that person that's on their own, every week they know they've got a regular check-in with someone when they can talk about anything they like. And it's again, it's form of connection. It's just maintaining connections with people is really important.

Freya Ward (03:58.903)
Anything.

Freya Ward (04:03.564)
Yeah, absolutely. Especially over the holiday period, you know, it's we've all spent lots of time with family, but there's lots of people out there that aren't as fortunate as ours. Yeah, it's it's it's something I don't think I've really told anybody that I do it, but it's it's something I really enjoy. And if anyone's got any time to spare to do that kind of thing, it's I think they do face to face ones, but just due to commitments and where I live, that's a bit challenging. So, yeah, it's just a 30 minute phone call each week and just a connection, like you said, and I love it.

Michael Lander (04:12.577)
Exactly right.

Michael Lander (04:26.092)
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Lander (04:33.922)
Brilliant, very good. Thank you, Freya. That's really, really good. Really interesting. And I think, yeah, a great sense of purpose and obviously something you really enjoy. So let's get into the questions that we kind of covered. There are kind of four broad topics. So first of all, how are buying behaviors changing in the world of B2B tech sales, do you think?

Freya Ward (04:56.302)
I think they have evolved so much in the last 10 years of working in this space. It's gone from who you know to who you can actually reach out to and get in touch with. think the B2B buyer themselves has become more precious of their time. I think there's a real generational thing that's come through and maybe some learned behavior as well when it comes to maybe the move to working remote during the pandemic and things like that.

I guess it's kind of learned behaviour when you work in an office environment, you expect the phone to be ringing, to be picking up calls, you accept sales calls to a degree. I mean, nobody likes to be sold to, but nowadays no one likes to be sold to. I think it's become even more consultative and just being able to get in front of the right people has become even more challenging for the B2B tech clients that we work with.

I still think there's definitely a place for cold calling. think it's really important. And actually a lot of BDRs, I think, are starting to cut through the noise because a lot of people have given up on cold calling and more traditional sales approaches. But I know so many people that don't even have work mobiles and they're working remote. So how do you get in front of these individuals when there's this huge shift in...

Michael Lander (06:04.052)
Exactly. Yeah.

Michael Lander (06:13.293)
Wow.

Freya Ward (06:19.214)
I guess the perception of sales calls as well. think every seller has to be more consultative and actually helpful. I think they should be anyway. I think that's a natural sales approach. But in my opinion, gone are the days of traditional, this is my product, this is my solution. Do you want to buy it? And instead it's got to be a nurtured sell. Gartner report, a couple of years ago, they reported that you have to have something like seven digital touch points to even have your brand acknowledged.

Any kind of brand awareness took at least seven digital touch points. It's something like 17 touch points now to build a relationship with a buyer. And that's passive touch points. That's not even having a conversation. That's not in a boardroom having a meeting about RFPs and things like that. That's actually just, I exist. So I think there's been a huge shift and I think it's really difficult for salespeople to cut through.

Michael Lander (07:09.451)
Exactly.

Michael Lander (07:16.15)
What do you think's driven that shift? So I see the same thing. I talked to Tav McKenna and Matt Dixon a while ago. They wrote this book called Jot. Some of the research in that across 2 million sales calls is that, yeah, the buying community's definitely changed. Buyers are now, there's more stakeholders involved in that whole kind of buying process. And people are even more skeptical of cold callers.

and even more or a higher desire to research things online. Is it because basically now there's more accessibility online?

Freya Ward (07:56.876)
For more accessibility online, think there's been some fantastic resources produced by companies to aid this buying, this digital buying process. I think there's a number of different factors that have driven this particular change. think the pandemic has had a huge impact on it. think people were furloughed, they were uncontactable, or they were working remote. They got shifted out of office all of a sudden with no mobile phones.

switchboards, I don't know if you've tried to get through to a switchboard recently, but a lot of them just ring, ring and ring and ring. And if someone is sat at their desk, you might get lucky. Maybe there's an opportunity there for salespeople. Because if no one is calling, then you'll be the first one that does. But I think a lot of things have driven that shift. And I do think a lot of it is also down to the environment that the new starters have come into over the last three, four years. They're not learning by seeing.

Michael Lander (08:26.712)
Pointless.

Michael Lander (08:34.519)
Yeah, yeah.

Freya Ward (08:52.76)
So when I started my career, I sat in an office, I had to pick up the phone because I didn't have a huge amount of responsibilities. So I was the gatekeeper, if you will. And I used to see what calls did make it through, which ones didn't make it through. And you would see your elders, guess, the directors, the managers, et cetera, on the phone taking these calls. You'd also see your new business people face to face. They'd be sat in a desk somewhere in the office near you and you'd hear them hammering the phones and

Michael Lander (09:22.296)
That's right.

Freya Ward (09:22.614)
making those calls. I think also the buyer has become more educated, so they want to do that research themselves. I'll try not to quote stats throughout this entire conversation, but I think something like 70 % of the buyer's journey is now done digitally before they even raise their hand, before you even know that that customer, potential customer even exists. So how are you meant to

Michael Lander (09:29.56)
They do, definitely.

But that's useful because they illustrate the point. So definitely carry on.

Michael Lander (09:42.092)
Exactly.

Freya Ward (09:49.876)
get in front of them and influence them. I do have some ideas as to how you can do that. Exactly. But I think there's been just a monumental shift. So many macro and micro factors that have come into it that have just created this whole, I don't want to say generation too much because I don't think it's an age thing. I think it's a culture within sales and within marketing. I can really only speak to selling to marketing professionals and buying as a marketing.

Michael Lander (09:53.676)
Yeah, which we'll cover in a minute. Yes, definitely. Yeah.

Michael Lander (10:09.334)
Mm-hmm.

Freya Ward (10:19.838)
but it's just the expectation that if I don't want to talk to you, I don't have to, whereas maybe previously it was a courtesy, a respect thing. It was a, you have a connection or you have a relationship through someone. and I think there are so many more channels that you can target people through now that everyone is just inundated the entire time of sales messaging that it all becomes quiet. The nothing is noisy enough.

Michael Lander (10:45.763)
Exactly. So I think a couple of points on that that I've seen and that I don't want the research pointers on this, but we know now that 95 % of buyers are not in the market to buy when you interrupt their day. So when you do interrupt their day digitally or if you're doing cold calling, you better add some value quickly because they need to be able to remember who you are. And then when they do have a problem, remember that it's you they're going to call.

So those 17 digital touch points, you've just got to be consistent, high quality, high value, be the trusted advisor. I I got, started my life in consulting, being taught how to be a trusted advisor. And it seems to be back in vogue again now.

Freya Ward (11:32.321)
That book will do the circulation again. I'm sure we've all read the trusted advice. Yeah, is. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Michael Lander (11:35.349)
Exactly, The Trust and Advisor. Exactly, correct. It's a brilliant book. And I still reference it now by Meister, David Meister. It's a brilliant book. It's a brilliant book. And I think it's coming back. I still use the trust equation because it's still true. know, what used to be a lot of salespeople would leverage off a relationship. You now have to think about the credibility and the reliability and you'll be more aware of your client than you are of yourself. All of that's coming back.

which leads us on nicely into the kind of like the next topic really, which is what is content syndication and how does B2B Lead Gen work in this context? Because it's not immediately obvious. So in simple terms for the layperson, explain what it is and how it works.

Freya Ward (12:24.878)
Yeah, of course, I will do my best. So content syndication is essentially the exchange of information. So you syndicate content to an audience that meets your ideal customer profile. And that can be done in a variety of different ways. And in exchange for access to the content, they provide their contact information, business contact information. And how that is done in the context of B2B lead generation, and I can only really speak from Headly Media's perspective.

The way that we do it, we're an in-house publisher. We own a portfolio of over 300 websites worldwide. Those are credible websites that are recognized by our readers, which are technology decision makers. That includes everyone from your IT tech decision maker all the way through to you referencing the hidden buyers, like your CFO, your CRO, any other job titles that you want to throw in there. We have industry-specific brands, so spanning IT, finance, HR.

electronics, we've moved into the AI space recently, sales, marketing, and so on. And the way that we generate leads for our clients is by essentially publishing the client's content behind a gated form within one of our recognized content libraries or websites, whatever you want to call them. And we promote that content through a dedicated email to a subscribed readership that meets their target audience criteria, job title, company size, geo, and so on and so forth.

The audience, if they want to engage with content, because it is all about reader's choice, similar to how we were talking about the buyer's shift in the buying behavior, it's all about choice. So if they want to engage with that content, they click through onto the landing page, they populate the form, GDPR compliant, so they don't have to tick that they want to hear from your company. if they do, either way, they can still consume the content. But once they get through that form, they access your content, they consume your content. We then validate that data.

We scrub anybody from the report that has not consented to further communications and anybody that doesn't meet the ideal customer profile. We then deliver those leads back to that tech company, whoever the client is that we're working with, as marketing qualified leads. very important, MQLs, not SQLs, as individuals that are engaging with your content and they're ready to consume more of your content and go through a nurture path.

Michael Lander (14:33.046)
Yes, MQLs, yeah.

Michael Lander (14:44.013)
And I guess, and that's brilliant explanation. Very simple. Yeah, I get how it works, I think. And I guess also, if I'm right, on the kind of the buy side, whoever's receiving that information, once they've consented and said, yes, I'm happy to be contacted, at least then this isn't a cold, inbound request from a third party vendor. At least now they've read a thought leadership paper. They've been interested in what they've said.

and a further conversation would be welcome. It's much warmer, I guess, as a lead generation tool than straight cold call outbound.

Freya Ward (15:23.202)
Yes, I always recommend to my clients and of course there are different ways that we can enhance the campaign. We can make it more sophisticated. We can do waterfall campaigns, multiple pieces of content, know, multiple nurtures and engagements. But if we're talking just strictly about a single touch campaign where they've downloaded one piece of content, I always recommend that the leads that we deliver are handled as though they are outbound. So as though you are cold calling and that it's not a golden ticket. They haven't got their wallet open.

Michael Lander (15:46.806)
Yes, exactly.

No.

Freya Ward (15:52.546)
there's so much intelligence behind that. So the leads will come through with the asset they engaged with, when they consume that content. And if you're working with your content marketing department to develop that content, to host on our website, you should have an understanding as to what the pain points are when someone engages with that piece of content. What are their challenges? Why would they be consuming that piece of content over another piece of content?

where our clients see most success, they put them on a digital nurture path. So they promote more content to them. They transition them from our brand to their brand. And they start reaching out to them with an acknowledgement that they've consumed that piece of content on the IT corporate or fintech corporate website, whichever one of our websites they've used. So you have that brand association. But it's a thought leadership approach. So it is a, have a challenge, we have a solution, but can I help you while you're investigating? You you might not be ready for a sales call, but

Michael Lander (16:39.938)
Exactly.

Freya Ward (16:46.85)
Here's a white paper we wrote that talks about, you you address this particular challenge from that first piece. Here's a piece that talks about five tips that CFOs have been looking at in order to fix that problem or whatever it might be. So it is a way of getting closer and more intelligent, but in a very controlled and quality driven approach with a publication that is well recognized by your readers. And it's just less aggressive than a cold call. Like you said at the beginning,

Michael Lander (17:14.444)
It is.

Freya Ward (17:14.99)
this conversation, Mike, nobody wants to be sold to certainly not when they're being interrupted halfway through their day. But if they've given you a signal that they have a problem because they're consuming a piece of content, then I think that is kind of a welcome invite for at least more content to be shared with them. And then you're positioning your company as an expert, a thought leader, an advisor, all that credibility that comes with it.

Michael Lander (17:20.706)
No.

Michael Lander (17:35.148)
Exactly.

Michael Lander (17:38.713)
It also reminds me of the brilliant work done by Cialdini about, it's a behavioral psychology book. But one of the things he talks about is reciprocity. Is that if you give me something that's valuable that I haven't paid for, I'm more inclined to be interested in talking to you as a person to find out, well, you know, what else was behind it and how else can...

You help me. I'm much more inclined to be more receptive if it's come from a, yeah, you give me something, then I should give you something back in return. What I give you back in return is my time. You're much more likely to do that, much more likely. So can you talk about some of the metrics and how effective it is at Collegian?

Freya Ward (18:23.288)
Yeah, absolutely.

Freya Ward (18:29.516)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the role that Headly Media plays in the content syndication process and the lead generation when it comes to metrics of success, our promise is always clear. It's to generate leads that meet your ICP, that have explicitly consented to further communications and have consumed your content. That's where, if you like, the buck stops when it comes to Headly Media's responsibility. However, we

Michael Lander (18:53.305)
And now, Freya, just so the listeners are completely aware, this is not a sponsored podcast. I have no commercial relationship with Headly Media at all. Headly Media is merely an example of how this kind of industry works around lead gen. So listeners, this is not an advert of any kind, but we need an example. Like in anything, you need an example to talk through how it works. So sorry, carry on.

Freya Ward (19:17.024)
Yeah, no, absolutely, Mike. And I think how we ended up kind of building out the questions for this podcast was based on us explaining what we do and your curiosity around all this is an interesting concept. Are others doing this? Yes, they absolutely are. And what I'm trying to get across in this conversation is how it should be done, not necessarily how it is done everywhere, but how, in my opinion, in my experience, it should be done. So, yeah, so the way that Headly Media would evaluate metrics is we would

Michael Lander (19:22.808)
Hmm.

Michael Lander (19:41.772)
Exactly.

Freya Ward (19:46.702)
provide all the support and guidance around how next to nurture the leads based on our experience and our clients experience. But really where the success comes is in the client's responsibility. So it's what they do next. When it comes to lead generation and content syndication, clients have the least amount of success when they just pick up the phone and start hammering these leads.

Michael Lander (19:58.413)
Yeah, exactly.

Michael Lander (20:09.004)
Yes, I can imagine.

Freya Ward (20:10.35)
the same as the whole sales world. Like if I could generate sales ready opportunities for V2B tech companies worldwide, I would probably not be on this podcast. I'd be laying on a beach somewhere having a lovely time. But what we do is get you one step closer. So content syndication and lead generation done in this way can get you closer to building that pipeline and generating that nurture and that longer term strategy when it comes to lead generation. Metrics of success.

Michael Lander (20:21.076)
Exactly.

Freya Ward (20:38.552)
first off should be the publisher that you're working with. So can you see where the landing pages are? Can you proof them? Are they real landing pages or are they just microsites that are just published for you to have a look at? Are these actually fully fledged websites and publications that readers come to where your leads are being generated? That is the first metric of success when working with any contents indication provider. When it then comes into...

kind of revenue streams and what's happening next. I always encourage our clients to obviously look at the quality of the data that's coming through. Do they meet your ICP? Have they been ping tested for their email validity? Have you cross-referenced LinkedIn? Sorry, has the publisher cross-referenced LinkedIn to make sure these people are real and there's not AI bots and they're not just chucking in data from Zoom Info and other sources.

you know, how have they been generated? And then when it comes through to nurture, you want to set up a workflow sequence. You want to see that these leads are starting to slowly move through this education journey with your brand. So are they consuming other pieces of content? Are the emails bouncing when you're sending it to them? Have they blacklisted you? You know, all of those kind of important things and where we see clients that have most success when it comes to lead gen and content syndication as kind of a hybrid approach.

is when they have that marketing automation system set up, ready to nurture the leads. They have those workflows set up. They've had a kickoff session with us and with their BDR and SDOG team so that when the leads have done a few more things and they're ready to go over to sales, they know where they were generated, where they came from and how best to handle them. Yes.

Michael Lander (21:56.984)
Exactly.

Michael Lander (22:12.086)
what they've read, what they're interested in, why they were talking to you in the first place, what their issues are, is the timing right, all that good stuff.

Freya Ward (22:20.202)
exactly that. But where you need to look when you're looking at any kind of metrics of success is evaluate your sales cycle. So how long is your average sales cycle from a cold outbound opportunity? That's where you want to start benchmarking content syndication to begin with. And then you want to look at how you can optimize it to shorten that sales cycle. If you evaluate a campaign that's been running for three months on have I got a sales opportunity off the back of this, if your sales cycle is on average nine to 12 months anyway,

Michael Lander (22:32.29)
Yep.

Freya Ward (22:50.038)
you're not evaluating the right kind of success.

Michael Lander (22:52.953)
think that's an excellent point. I haven't heard someone say that to me before, but now he said it, it's fairly obvious, which is, course, I my average, I think, well, I know, I track my average sales cycle from first meet through to doing some work with someone is about, I think before Christmas, it was something like seven or eight months, typically, because you've got to get to know me. I'm a consultant, I'm a trusted advisor. So trust takes time to build.

So the idea that I get results within like four weeks would be ludicrous. You're right.

Freya Ward (23:27.918)
which is why I think you look at the first success being, are these good quality leads? Do they meet my ICP? Can I nurture them? That's a four week metric of success, right? And sometimes I'll speak to my clients and I'll say to them, you know, what's the actual monetary value of investment in your product that you're looking to sell these leads eventually. And if they say, oh, it's 1.2 million, then I don't think anyone is going to give that up in three months. I mean, if they do, what a success.

Michael Lander (23:53.312)
No. Exactly. That's normally a two or three year cycle. Yeah.

Freya Ward (23:58.75)
Exactly. So we have to take these things into account when you're evaluating the success. And it can be a hefty investment when you're pivoting into a new approach and a new channel like confidence indication. But having that long term strategy behind it with some micro measurements along the way, good quality data, they're engaging with more assets and these kind of things. You know, we're ticking the box as we go along. And then when we get those revenue goals coming through and we're hitting those targets,

Michael Lander (24:07.448)
Mmm.

Michael Lander (24:17.656)
Hmm.

Freya Ward (24:26.208)
Amazing. We get permission from the CFO, we get CRO, whoever else in that tech company that needs to approve bigger investment is on board, but it's baby steps until you get.

Michael Lander (24:37.165)
So that's really made me think about a couple of questions extra, which we haven't prepared, but let's see where this goes. So there must be a kind of a volume threshold whereby content syndication starts to be viable. Presumably, if you've got a very small number of clients or you're a small consultancy, small agency, probably less likely to work because the economics probably don't work. But then the second thing it made me think was, how do you cross the chasm?

How do you go from a world where you're not doing content syndication, then you have to invest in content syndication before you get the return, but in that six to 12 month period, you've also got to survive and bring in new clients without breaking the bank. How do you help clients manage that quite complex transition?

Freya Ward (25:27.758)
It's a really, really good point, Mike. think the challenge comes lower budget, lower lead volume, higher expectation. That's a given with everything, right? Now I would love to only work on huge scale campaigns because, know, law of averages, the more leads you throw into a pipeline, the more likely you're going to have the likelihood of conversion. But that isn't the reality of the world. So how do you juggle that?

Michael Lander (25:37.008)
Right. Yeah.

Michael Lander (25:43.64)
Yeah, of course.

Freya Ward (25:56.608)
starting a new tactic, starting working on a new channel, not investing too much, but also not, you you've got pressure from your manager or your directors or whoever saying you've invested in this new channel. What's, what's the result? It's all about expectation setting. So it's, you know, let's not focus on the end goal of a sale. Just like salespeople, we don't focus on a sale for every phone call that we pick up. Otherwise we would be the most miserable people in the world and have the least amount of success.

Michael Lander (26:04.92)
That's right.

Michael Lander (26:08.47)
That's the result. Yeah.

Michael Lander (26:22.154)
Exactly.

Freya Ward (26:24.044)
We focus on micro goals. So as a salesperson, my first tactic when I'm doing any kind of outreach is to get a response. That's the first, first step, right? So those micro goals that take you along the way, and that is the expectation setting when you start content syndication. There is, course, a minimum spend and a threshold that is dependent on the complexity of the target audience. That is dependent on how challenging it is to engage that particular readership and how good the content is.

Michael Lander (26:31.916)
Yeah. Yeah.

Freya Ward (26:52.11)
We have some clients that will approach us and they will have a target account list of 15 accounts that they want to target and they will have a contact cap of five individuals. Now the reality is that the technology decision-making committee is made up of more than five individuals, especially if you're trying to target an enterprise account. We've got these hidden buyers now, we've got CFOs, we've got CROs, we've got all these secret quiet individuals that very much involved in evaluating investment.

Michael Lander (27:05.816)
Of course.

Michael Lander (27:13.506)
Yep. That's right.

Freya Ward (27:17.248)
And so it's all about expectation setting at the beginning and my job and the conversations I have. And I love it because when that penny drops, it just and it just makes sense of a client. And I work with the marketing managers within our client accounts to help them set expectations internally. with Headly Media and the way that we work, and I imagine it's similar in other businesses, I'm not 100 % sure. And you don't you don't pay upfront. So you pay for what's delivered on a monthly basis. So you could

pace the campaign, for example, over that duration, you might front load in the first month. So you get a good healthy pipeline that will be nurtured throughout that six, nine month, three month period. But you then slow down the pacing. So the investment is actually smaller over a longer duration. There's lots of different approaches that you can take when it comes to setting expectations and stretching that budget as far as you can, but without diluting it too far as well.

Michael Lander (27:58.136)
Mm.

Michael Lander (28:11.65)
So it also presumably works quite well for ABM type programs where someone's gone, I've got a top 50 set of accounts. We want to target them. We're in it for the long run. So we're in it for like 12, 24, 36 months to build relationships. I could see how content syndication would work really well in environment.

Freya Ward (28:15.64)
absent.

Freya Ward (28:29.966)
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, you know, it's ABM campaigns or lookalike campaigns. So we do hybrid. So you focus on a target account list, but also who else looks like those accounts elsewhere. One thing I always ask when I receive an ABM list is where has this list come from? Because if it is a watch list of dream accounts from the CEO, let's break down. Do they actually meet your ICP? Have you got customers that already buy from you that look like these accounts?

Michael Lander (28:45.645)
Yes.

Freya Ward (28:57.31)
does it look like? But yeah, absolutely, ABM is one of our most popular campaigns.

Michael Lander (29:01.802)
Interesting. So this has been really, this is, it's kind of taken away the mystique for me of how kind of content syndication works in a genuine lead gen environment. I imagine people would be, yeah, people will be interested in, well, what kind of conversion rates do you get? But to your point, it's like, well, yeah, how do you measure, you want the first engagement level, first of all, I guess. So if you compare it with cold calling,

which is like what's response rate on call call? Half percent probably, I don't know of people that you contact. Is content syndication higher than that?

Freya Ward (29:38.968)
I would expect so, yeah. If it's handled in the right way, if the data that you provided is handled in the right way. So it really is a collaborative partnership with clients as well, because you're building trust, you're building rapport, but you're also asking them to show you their pain points, know, get into the nitty gritty, talk about what your challenges currently are within your marketing through to sales process. And let me help you, let me work as an extension of your team to...

Michael Lander (29:40.14)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Freya Ward (30:05.998)
Yeah, evaluate how we move forward and get you the most. I always always ask marketing managers that I speak to what's a what's a quick win because if there are areas that we can support, so for example, the CEO really cares about this particular account, is there any way that we can get some traction? I can show him or her that you know we've got some engagement within this account or we're looking at a cross sell upsell opportunity. That is a great way to get a slightly shorter sales cycle. For example, three contents indication is.

build out an ABM list of existing customers that aren't buying this product line, but are buying this complimentary product line. Let's target them with that messaging. There's so much that you can do. Problem solving, really. And it's doing it in a more controlled way. If you compare it to things like social media lead generation, can absolutely, you can do the programmatic advertising. can...

Michael Lander (30:42.081)
Exactly.

Michael Lander (30:47.842)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Freya Ward (31:02.19)
do social ads and things like that. And I think it can be quite controlled, but you don't have necessarily someone on the other end of the phone that can hash this out with you and brainstorm.

Michael Lander (31:12.482)
Yeah. And also on the, on a social campaign, you're not, although you're targeting people that are the right kind of profile targeting is very good, but they haven't opted into a list to say, I'm particularly interested in these kinds of vendors with these kinds of solutions to these kinds of problems. So yours is, I would, out of thought yours is more targeted as long as you've got a large database of potential buyers on the other side. Yeah.

Freya Ward (31:34.926)
Absolutely.

Freya Ward (31:40.49)
Exactly. If you look at our portfolio of over 300 websites, every single landing page, so every piece of content that is hosted across our publications is tagged with keywords. So a reader populates a form, their profile is tagged with those keywords. We progressively profile them over a period of time. We survey them to understand, you know, what is it that you're interested in this year? Is it cybersecurity? Is it endpoint management? You know, what are the pain points? What are the challenges? And we, our,

The biggest risk to our actual product and solution is oversaturating the audience with content they don't care about, right? So we make sure it's very holistic, it's very targeted, it's based on the signals provided by our readership because if we fatigue the audience, the audience becomes fatigued, we don't have any leads to sell. So that is very much protected within our model.

Michael Lander (32:13.932)
Yes.

Michael Lander (32:25.45)
Exactly.

So, conscious of your time, Freya. So, drawing it to a conclusion. So, if you were talking to a high growth kind of tech company sales director, what advice would you give them about the importance of kind of thought leadership in this market, how to go about it? And what are your kind of your top three, I would say, tips off the back of this kind of podcast? What are the things that you think people should do when thinking about content syndication as a thought leadership?

Freya Ward (32:30.189)
Yes.

Michael Lander (32:57.944)
kind of channel.

Freya Ward (33:00.75)
There's a few different pieces to unpack there. So I think if I was talking to a sales director about the importance of thought leadership, I think a sales director that is managing a sales team within a tech company that is trying to reach out and prospect and all these kinds of things, I would be saying teach by example. So allow your sales managers, your BDRs, et cetera, to see what you're doing. And I think there's a really real importance, especially this year.

Michael Lander (33:18.072)
Mm-hmm.

Freya Ward (33:26.718)
in thought leadership as a salesperson. So it is positioning yourself as an expert, as a credible expert and not just a salesperson. We've seen hundreds of people on LinkedIn starting to change their job titles to growth and revenue as opposed to sales. I think our sales have a bit of a bad reputation. So really, is. But I think, know, positioning yourself as an expert and a thought leader,

Michael Lander (33:39.32)
We have. We have.

Michael Lander (33:45.516)
which is separate podcast altogether, but yes.

Freya Ward (33:55.936)
in your space will really help that directive for your BDRs and your SDR team. When it comes to top three tips around content syndication and lead generation, I'm going to take a slightly sales approach here. I'm going to say answer the phone when a lead gen supplier calls you. Because if you speak to a credible one and there are thousands of lead gen and content syndication suppliers out there, I'm making it my sole mission.

Michael Lander (33:59.673)
Hmm.

Michael Lander (34:10.679)
Right.

Freya Ward (34:19.138)
to cut through the smoke and mirrors and actually show that there is quality here within lead gen and content communication. I spend most of my life undoing the bad that has been done in the industry that I work with. But there are good quality providers out there and suppliers out there. So identify who those are and actually have a brainstorming session with one of them. Talk through your pain points and be open to change because the buying committee is changing, it's evolving, the way that people buy is evolving.

Michael Lander (34:29.43)
Right. Yep.

Freya Ward (34:48.598)
And if you continue with just traditional methods, you might strike lucky because others are moving away from it. But if you're in the long game, then I think you have to get on board with providing thought-leading content and cutting through the noise in a controlled environment.

Michael Lander (34:59.766)
Absolutely.

Michael Lander (35:04.12)
Definitely brilliant Freya. It's been fantastic. It's been really really interesting. You're obviously extremely experienced in your field. You understand content marketing and kind of thought leadership and content distribution really well. It's been a pleasure having you on and it's made me really think again about how do you do lead gen? How does content syndication work? And how do you make sure you've got a quality provider? That you're working with because there are a lot of people out there that will claim the world

And the reality is they deliver very little. And that gives it a bad reputation. So thank you for taking your time to come and share your insights with us. It's been really, really good. Thank you.

Freya Ward (35:41.442)
It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much, Mike.

Michael Lander (35:43.756)
Brilliant. And whereabouts can people find out more about you?

Freya Ward (35:46.762)
So you can find me on LinkedIn under Freya Ward or if you check out the Headly Media website www.headlymedia.com there's heaps of resources about checklists to identify good quality lead gen suppliers, what to look for, the pitfalls, all that kind of stuff within there and yeah feel free to reach out.

Michael Lander (36:05.602)
Brilliant, very good, thanks ever so much indeed for joining me. Thank you.

Freya Ward (36:08.238)
Thanks Mike.

Michael Lander (36:10.115)
OK, and we're out. So I'm just going to stop the recording. One second.