Physical Gifting: The Pattern Disrupt That Wins Attention with Kris Rudeegraap, Part 2

[00:00:00] Kris: I like that stat because again, I'm not saying just send out gift, close your eyes and you're gonna get a, you know, billions of dollars in pipeline. It's. This needs to accompany an omnichannel approach, and so if we can five to nine x your response rates, it's a no brainer.
[00:00:15] Mike: My name's Mike Lander, and you are listening to higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast, where we bring you actionable insights about sales, RFPs, negotiations, and difficult procurement discussions from sales leaders.
Ground leaders and procurement leaders, please subscribe to get updates when new episodes are released.
Kris, thanks ever so much for coming back onto the show for part two of Higgle, all the B2B Sales Club podcast focus to have you, who are you, what do you do, and your favorite place in the world that you visited.
[00:00:51] Kris: Yeah. I'm Kris Rudi grp, co-founder and CO CEO of Sendoso we're the leading. Gifting and direct mail automation platform.
We help companies build pipeline, book meetings, build relationships, close deals, all by sending cool stuff. Could be a t-shirt, could be 10,000 postcards, could be a Yeti mug, could be a bottle of champagne. All that stuff works in today's noisy digital world we live in. It started the company about 10 years ago.
Fast forward. We've got hundreds of millions in spend on our platform, billions in pipeline created, and I'm having a blast along the way. And through the last decade of this journey, I've had the chance to go to Bora Bora and French Polynesia five times. And so that's my favorite spot I've been, and a nice relaxing vacation that I, uh, booked another trip there later this year.
So, uh, going on, uh, sixth time there.
[00:01:37] Mike: And I think, you know, importantly, you know, places and songs. They always bring back fond memories, and that's why I asked the question is it brings the smile to people's faces and it reconnects us with fellow humans that are normally part of that journey. And in this case, that was your wife and that's amazing.
So in part one, we talked about basically the journey. Uh, so for people that miss part one or they've come in for part two, just kinda like, gimme a couple of quick things. So one, how many funding rounds have you been through? Um, what kinda revenue are you at now?
[00:02:05] Kris: Yeah, over a hundred million in revenue.
We've been through five funding rounds, so over 150 million in funding from seed to Series C, which has been quite the adventure.
[00:02:14] Mike: Perfect. So anyone that's missed part one, go back. Listen to how Kris got there. It's a really, really interesting story. The second thing, just before we kick off, what are the kinda lessons learned, do you think, on that journey?
Just for people that weren't tuned into part one?
[00:02:27] Kris: Yeah, lesson learned. Number one is if you're starting a company or early stage, go talk to customers. Yesterday. The more you can validate, the more people you can educate on what you're doing and feedback you can get or pre-selling your product, the better.
So I'd say don't be scared to go talk to a stranger and sell 'em on your product in your dream. So that's number one. Number two is go out and find advisors, find mentors. It's a long journey and having people that have been there and done that, people that are willing to help is critical in this long journey, and it is a long journey.
So number three is have some fun along the way. It's a marathon. Not a sprint. So take some vacations, relax and make sure you're in it for the long haul. 'cause starting a company isn't an overnight success and can take you a decade or more.
[00:03:11] Mike: Brilliant. Kris, you, you look fresh. Still revitalized and yeah, 10 years in.
It's a remarkable journey. Let's now move on to, in part two, talking about basically this gifting the sales environment, et cetera. So what are the biggest misconceptions about gifting and direct mail in B2B sales?
[00:03:31] Kris: I've got a few of 'em that I hear over the years and kinda want, let's debunk 'em. Let's myth bust 'em.
[00:03:35] Mike: Yeah, definitely.
[00:03:37] Kris: So the first one is, gifting is expensive. I think people will generalize and say, oh, I could send an email that's $0, or if I send a $30 bottle of wine, that's expensive. So my answer to that is. What if I told you that spending $1 on gifting delivered $12 a pipeline versus spending $1 in ads only delivered $2 in pipeline, comparatively.
Now your ads look expensive, not your gifting. So that's one thing. Another thing is, is. Well, what if you spent 50 bucks on that bottle of wine and got the prospect's attention and booked that meeting month one, which would be four months sooner than if you were just spraying and preying with emails and it took you six months to book that meeting and close that deal.
So was that $50 worth driving revenue, like five months sooner? Does that feel expensive anymore? So when I, if you think about it like that, and then the last thing is I think gifting doesn't have to be expensive. Um, I've seen some people send out. An empty pizza box with a note saying, hungry for a new solution.
You know, that's just a cardinal, that's like four bucks. Um, I've seen someone send out a treasure map in the mail with, you know, looking for a golden new solution. I've seen brilliant people send out like an a fake aspirin pill bottle. With a note saying like, does your current solution give you a headache?
And so there's lots of ways to use creativity instead of money. So if you really are cash strapped, I mean, can't even afford a $50 gift, get us $8 gift or an $8 mailer. And oftentimes exactly, it's creativity that breaks through the noise. So number one. Gifting is expensive. That's debunked. It's not
[00:05:11] Mike: exactly, it's definitely a myth.
It's debunked number two.
[00:05:14] Kris: Number two is I don't have mailing addresses, so I can't send anything. I don't know where people are anymore. Well, one, you know, tools like suno offer address verification services so the recipient can confirm their address. So if you have their email now you can get their address.
Two, there's address data service providers out there that can give you addresses, or again, sendo is the one and only solution on the market that has a smart delivery feature where we'll actually tell you, Hey, Kris is in the office, or Kris is working from home, and here's his office address. And we'll provide that data for you automatically so you don't have to worry about the headache of where should I send this?
So number two is, again, you don't have the address. You can't do direct mail and gifting. Well, that's debunked. There's ways to help you. Yep. Number three is gifting is only for large enterprises with very high ACVs. That's wrong. We have a lot of customers selling to the s and b where you can send gifts that are five to 10 bucks.
Even a $5 coffee gift card can be effective, or even a postcard that's relevant or a handwritten note, which can cost less than five bucks. All those things can be super effective. You don't have to go spend $500 on sending someone an iPad or a thousand dollars on sending somebody a nice, you know, Scotty Cameron, golfing putter.
It's oftentimes the creativity, you know, we talked about this earlier in terms of the aspirin or the pizza box that breaks the noise, not the super expensive gift. And then the last but not least is you don't know what to send so you don't send. And so again, I think there are services like Sendo that offers a smart Send feature, which is an AI agent that will suggest what the right gift is for Kris.
It it, we can say, we know Kris lives in near San Francisco. We know. He likes golf. We know he likes hiking. He has a kid. Here are some things you should send to Kris specifically. In addition to that, services like Soso have a campaign services team. We will actually act as like an agency like team to provide you with gift recommendations too.
So I. Again, misconception. Don't know what to send, so I'm not gonna send debunks again. Services are out there to help you there too.
[00:07:22] Mike: Perfect. And also for anyone listening to part two and even to part one, to be clear, Kris's firm's not sponsoring this show. No, this is nothing about sponsorship. This is nothing about monetization of the podcast.
This is a genuine, I met Kris I think via LinkedIn and was fascinated having obviously been in sales for 30 odd years about this whole market. So I've got another myth for you. Which you will be able to debunk, but I haven't prepared you for. It is, gifting is cheesy.
[00:07:50] Kris: Yeah.
[00:07:50] Mike: People go, uh, it's a bit ick, uh, not interested.
Uh, why is that a myth? Because it clearly is 'cause your platform works.
[00:07:58] Kris: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a myth because people are used to the old patterns of like 2010 sales and marketing, which was, hey, uh, the enterprises just wanna receive an email and a cold call, and then they'll respond. But the old world is, is broken.
You need to unlearn what's yesterday and you need to realize that you're trying to build a relationship.
[00:08:18] Mike: Exactly. You're not trying to sell. Correct. I think in this market, this is really important, Kris. I think in this market there's enough data to tell us. Now buyers are retreating behind the corporate firewall.
[00:08:31] Kris: Correct.
[00:08:31] Mike: They're fed up with. AI personalization at scale. Can't tell the difference between AI and people. Now don't answer my phone because I just get bombarded with spam. So you've gotta find a way of building a connection. All we're trying to do is build a connection and start a relationship. We're not trying to sell something here.
Is that right?
[00:08:52] Kris: A hundred percent. You know, people buy from people and in today's kind of oversaturated digital world, you know when an email comes through, it doesn't feel personal anymore, and so that's where providing a really creative, unique gift can break through that noise that is personal. The nice thing about gifting too is it can AC come accompany a handwritten note too?
So you have two chances to be personal or even three if you think about the custom box it's in. So you can have a unique custom unboxing experience mixed with a unique custom gift mixed with with a unique custom handwritten note. And then to make things even better, if you start before that, sending that gift with something nice and personal through another channel and then follow up with another nice follow up that all works well.
And so I'm not like anti email by any means or anti cold call. I'm just saying you can't just solely rely on being email, email, email, email. You have to think multichannel. You have to catch the buyer where they are, and you have to build relationships and you have to create value. So there's a a reason why gifting and direct mail works so well today.
[00:09:54] Mike: And does it work cross border? Is it international or is it just within?
[00:09:57] Kris: Yeah, no, I think it's very international. Certain countries, it works even better than others. But I think at the end of the day, that's where personalizing what you send and being thoughtful, the same thing you're gonna send. To somebody in Germany might be something different than you send to someone in California because people have different preferences and interests.
I mean, so I think that's critical in how you personalize things.
[00:10:18] Mike: Brilliant. I mean, in many ways it takes me back to wow selling in, God, when was it? Probably the two thousands you used to get like phones that would come through in the physical post and you'd open it and it'd be like, ring this number.
Find out what you've won, that kind of stuff. Yeah. And people in the office laughed.
[00:10:37] Kris: Yeah.
[00:10:38] Mike: But we called the number.
[00:10:39] Kris: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:10:39] Mike: Why? 'cause it was fun. Yeah. Because it was interesting. It was something unique, something different.
[00:10:42] Kris: It was a pattern disrupt. And I think that's the thing is that, you know, so many people will come to a strategy that everyone else is using.
Hey, let's send 10 emails out. And then that starts to become blinded and people. Need some pattern disrupt. And also you gotta be quirky, you gotta be different, you gotta be fun. You know, it's when you're, especially depending on who you're prospecting into, there's a lot of reasons why that person would rather receive something that's, you know, a bit cheeky than just boilerplate enterprise.
That.
[00:11:11] Mike: And I go back to what you said before, Kris, about it doesn't need to be expensive. I'd go further and go, it shouldn't be because actually if this is someone new, so if this is a prospecting outbound that you're doing, you can't send a $500 gift to someone. It's not appropriate. It feels wrong, but you send a five, 10, $20 gift and it's fun and it's quirky and it's a pattern disruptor.
I could see how that would definitely work.
[00:11:35] Kris: Exactly. And when the beauty of gifting is, it can be used throughout the entire buyer and customer journey. So while super top of funnel trying to book a meeting, maybe it doesn't make sense to send some a hundred dollars bottle of champagne, but maybe they, you know, during the sales cycle, you've already built rapport and you saw they just got a promotion.
Boom. Send them a congratulations. Or, Hey, they've been a customer for two years and they just had a kid. Boom, send them something. Congratulate 'em. So there's lots of different reasons why integrating and gifting can just build more rapport and be different in the sales cycle or in the customer life cycle.
So we've seen over the last few years. A shift into even more spend on the post-sales world account management, trying to drive expansion renewals. Just because it's another tactic, because you already have the relationship. Why not make it better?
[00:12:22] Mike: Exactly. Right. Exactly. So beyond simple thank yous or kind of meeting bookings, what are some of the most effective and diverse use cases for the platform?
[00:12:31] Kris: And what we usually do is we usually have our sales or our customer success team. Be a bit more consultative in trying to help our customers find the leaky buckets they have. Some examples might be, Hey you, you've got a good demo booking rate, but your no-show rate's low. You're only getting 70% of people showing up for a demo.
Well, boom, send them something the morning of and then boom, they'll show up more. Or, Hey, you've invested a lot in these conferences. You're going to. Why not send something inviting someone to come, uh, see you at your booth and drive up attendance for your booth, or, hey, you've got a signal based program where you've got a 50 target account, a BM list.
And why don't you send them stuff as part of that very high touch a BM program, or, Hey, you've got a good channel partner or integration partner that's sending you some referrals. Why not thank them for those referrals and send something to a partner?
[00:13:22] Mike: Well, I was gonna say, in the whole referral market, a lot of referrals, I refer prospects and clients to people that I know and they refer 'em to me.
It's a bit of an ecosystem. We often don't rely on a commission. It's often more about, well, we're gonna thank them. Yeah. Because it all goes around. I think using a gifting type platform to do that is a great way of saying, gee, thanks. I mean, I tried to do it via some of the online e-commerce stores years ago, not that long ago, even like a couple years ago.
It was really hard even to send gift vouchers. Cross border in different currencies was really difficult. And I was like, that's bonkers. It should be a click of a button.
[00:14:07] Kris: Exactly.
[00:14:07] Mike: So I get why that kind of like, you know,
[00:14:09] Kris: and that pain typically puts that 10th on your to-do list, so you could get to it, but it's so painful that you're like, Ooh, I should just do these other things.
And that's why having a gifting platform top of mind is just like, okay, I'm just gonna go click a button and send it. Or you could set up automations too. So that's a unique part of our platform where some of our more mature, savvy customers have set up automations based on data fields in their CRM or sales or marketing platforms.
They've set up automations through tools like clay and other sales automation platforms. They set up automations and workflows through N eight N or Zapier. Or some of these agent building platforms, and so they really thought about, Hey, gifting works. I wanna do more of it, so let me automate this into my processes more.
[00:14:55] Mike: Exactly right. So final kind of topic, if you look ahead, how do you see the future of gifting with autonomous gifting? So AI, automation, et cetera.
[00:15:05] Kris: Yeah, I think it's a really exciting time because for when we got started, there's still a lot of work. Sure, we made it easy to click a button and send something, but you still have to think of, well, what should I send?
Where should I deliver this to? What should the note be written on? And so right now we've uh, rolled out a really interesting AI smart suite and a set of agents that will go out and research what Kris likes. Well research his address, we'll research the right message to write, and all those things are just gonna drive more conversion for you.
And so AI, I think is getting really good at this suggestion recommendation engine based on a ton of big data and on the hundreds of millions of data points we have in our data set from the last decade. So I think all of that is gonna make it easier for our customers to send the right gift at the right time, with the right message to the right person that delivers more responses and more engagement.
And then I see AI just continuing to get better at that to a point where it can just live on and be, you know, kind of an AI agent for you. And that's really what we're, you know, evangelizing in the market that it doesn't have to be hard. Going back to those misconceptions. And AI and AI agents make it easier to gift.
[00:16:09] Mike: So if I was listening to this, I'm getting, you know, I drop Arsen off at school some mornings and I'm driving home listening to a podcast. The question in my mind would be conversion rates. Yeah. And ROI. So obviously it varies massively, I guess, by campaign and by prospect and by the service and industry you're in.
But broadly, what kind of. Kind of conversion rate, are you seeing from someone's prospecting that, so this is like kind of top of funnel awareness kind of stuff. Beyond brand, obviously this is much more campaign performance led. Um, what kind of reception rate are you seeing in terms of I get a gift and I actually interact with the call to action and let's come back to the CTA.
Because it's great getting a, you know, I get a bottle of water in the post. Brilliant. But what's the CTA? What's the actual, what are people responding to? So rates, conversion rates, rough, broad figures. And then how should the CTA be structured?
[00:17:07] Kris: One of the stats that I love, based on a data study that we did about a year ago with a ton of different data is.
That outreach that was email or cold call only, versus outreach. That was email, cold call and gifts. The gifts was five to nine times more effective. I like that stat because again, I'm not saying just send out gif close your eyes and you're gonna get a, you know, billions of dollars in pipeline. It's, this needs to accompany an omnichannel approach.
And so if we can five to nine x your response rates, it's a no brainer. So that's the first thing. It's an
[00:17:38] Mike: absolute no brainer.
[00:17:38] Kris: Yeah. The other conversion rro I metric I like to look at is we've got dozens and dozens of case studies, if not hundreds on our website, and most of this is looking at the ROI of spend.
So going back to that misconception, and most all of those are in the thousand percentile and ROI. 'cause again, if you're spending, you know, a hundred bucks on a gift and you're generating a six, seven figure opportunity, like the ROI is insane. And so I think the ROI on the spend is another way to look at it as well.
[00:18:06] Mike: Yeah, exactly. And that kind of ROI, as you say is like, well, if I've got even a $10,000 a OV. Spend and you are nurturing people along that journey. Spending 30 bucks to stand out from the crowd.
[00:18:20] Kris: Yeah, exactly.
[00:18:21] Mike: On a longer term journey. And the LTV is huge.
[00:18:24] Kris: Exactly. The other shift we're seeing is people spend 10, 20, $50 on a click right now.
Ads got expensive on Facebook and ads got really expensive on LinkedIn. And so now you're like, that's for sure. Hey, should I spend a $30 click on somebody that's searching for, you know, our name on Google. Or should I repurpose that budget to a targeted list of people that we want to buy and spend 30 bucks a gift versus 30 bucks a click?
Like the math there. We're seeing a lot of people shift advertising dollars away and into gifting because it's more effective, it's more memorable. It's like, did I remember that I just clicked on some brands ad like two months ago? Or do I look at my desk and have a a Yeti water bottle from a brand and what's worth it?
So,
[00:19:10] Mike: oh, so just on the, before the CTA. So the thing with these conversations, Kris, is it always takes me in a different direction.
[00:19:16] Kris: Yeah.
[00:19:16] Mike: I work with a lot of agencies, creative agencies, so I can imagine a creative agency if they develop something really creative that's kind of bespoke. It could be an image or it could be a physical object.
I don't know. Does the same thing work? Can they send that out to prospects via the kind of these platforms?
[00:19:34] Kris: A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:35] Mike: So you can create your own product Exactly. Or your own note as well that you can send out.
[00:19:39] Kris: Yeah, and we see some companies doing, we have printing on demand capabilities.
We also see some companies coming up with their own like apparel lines, like rather than their own logo. It's like a cooler apparel line so people can get really creative with it
[00:19:52] Mike: or your name printed on a bottle. Yeah. So it's my bottle.
[00:19:55] Kris: Yeah.
[00:19:55] Mike: Actually is quite practical.
[00:19:56] Kris: Yeah, exactly.
[00:19:57] Mike: Brilliant. Now, now
[00:19:58] Kris: there's a lot of ways
[00:19:58] Mike: CTA, I'll take an example, like the bottle of water bottle because it's easy 'cause I'm holding one.
If someone was sending a water bottle, a nice water bottle, like the Yeti ones, you know, we as a family love those Yeti bottles and they're brilliant. Again, not a sponsorship. Yeti aren't paying me, but as a bottle, it's got a certain feel to it. They're, they're beautiful. But what would the call to action be that a salesperson is going to do when they send out that bottle to a prospect?
[00:20:22] Kris: Yeah, so depends on what they're trying to accomplish. Like if they're trying to drive someone to come see them at an event and say, Hey, come, well just
[00:20:29] Mike: form a connect.
[00:20:30] Kris: Yeah,
[00:20:30] Mike: just get them into the ecosystem of people that know us and that we talk to.
[00:20:34] Kris: Correct. So I'd say there's, part of it is, hey, come to our event.
Hey, join a webinar. Hey, looking forward to seeing you at this demo next week. So there's kind of a call to action there. Then there's just the. Hey, you know, FYI, no CTA. I'll follow up in the next few days via email, and so you're kind of setting yourself up for that phone call or that email follow up so you can reference back to this mug.
I'd say the aggressive ask, like, Hey, here's a mug book time on my calendar. Is not as effective, but it's more of a way to open up the door, Hey, I thought you'd like this. And kind of a give get. So not always asking for the meeting right out the gate.
[00:21:14] Mike: Exactly. I was listening to a podcast this morning, Kris, which was basically from a guy that had interviewed Chelini and his book called Influence, and if anyone's not read that book, who's listening, read the book Because this is the reciprocity principle.
[00:21:27] Kris: Exactly.
[00:21:28] Mike: A small act of giving. Makes me feel like if I received a gift and it was a small gesture, it made me laugh. I am far more inclined to want to have that meeting, to want to go to the webinar, to want to go to your booth and say thank you as an act of reciprocity. Exactly. That baked into the psychology of what you do.
[00:21:46] Kris: A hundred percent. And that's why gifting works so well. Is there Is that human psychology baked in? There's reciprocity and there's the, what I call scarcity, which means, yeah, you're not getting like 2000 gifts on your scarcity is really important door. You're getting one today. Maybe if that, yeah. You know, most listeners, they probably get zero gifts on their doorstep today.
[00:22:05] Mike: And even better if this is unique, if this gift is for you, even if it's just got your name on it.
[00:22:11] Kris: Yeah.
[00:22:11] Mike: But there's only one of those, it's scarce.
[00:22:14] Kris: Exactly.
[00:22:14] Mike: And that creates, that compels our psychology to do something to the person that sent it
[00:22:19] Kris: a hundred percent.
[00:22:20] Mike: Kris, this has been amazing. What are your top two or three takeaways for people listening?
[00:22:25] Kris: Yeah. Top takeaway number one is there's a lot of misconceptions if you just think about gifting at a high level. So do your research, listen to this podcast, and you'll hear a lot of those myths Debunked. Two is giftings, not this silver bullet. You still gotta go out and omnichannel approach. You still gotta do calls, still gotta do emails, but gifting will help increase the likelihood of reply five to nine times more than if you're just doing email alone.
And then number three is you don't have to spend a million dollars on a gift. You know, it's the small things, it's the creativity and it's the pattern Disrupt. That are gonna get you that attention and build those relationships. So get out there and, uh, get gifting today.
[00:23:06] Mike: Brilliant. And I think my fourth one would be, it's fun.
Yeah. It brings back a sense of fun into what can be, you know, a really tough outbound sequencing for SDRs and salespeople. It brings back, back a sense of fun into that whole cycle.
[00:23:20] Kris: Exactly.
[00:23:21] Mike: Kris, it's been amazing. Thanks ever so much for joining me. Where can people find out more about you?
[00:23:26] Kris: Yeah, people can find me on LinkedIn.
Follow me, connect me on LinkedIn. Love to connect there I me an email. It's Kris KRIS@sendoso.com. And if you're curious about some of the things we talked about today, case studies examples, check out sendoso.com.
[00:23:39] Mike: Kris, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast. It's been great having you.
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