Rethinking Procurement’s Impact on Agency Success with Michelle Cleary

00:00 - Michelle (Guest)
We had a strong, established incumbent on two very, very large global brands and the winner of the RFP was a brand new agency to the company. The niche expertise is something that's becoming very needed in the United States, especially in marketing. We here do so much targeted multicultural marketing that we look for agencies that understand that consumer demographic. It's not your breadth and depth as a big global agency.

00:37 - Mike (Host)
It's do you understand this niche, consumer base, brand leaders and procurement leaders. Please subscribe to get updates when new episodes are released. Michelle, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B sales club podcast.

00:55 - Michelle (Guest)
Yes, thank you so much for having me Looking forward to this.

00:57 - Mike (Host)
Yeah, no, so am I, Because it's always. I love having every guest on my podcast, but they come with different perspectives. And I love it when I get buyers on, because every seller wants to know how a buyer thinks how we buy. And it's very well me saying it as an ex-procurement director, but you're live in the role. That's what you do for a living every day. You specialize in marketing procurement. So, without further ado, Michelle, who are you, what do you do and your favorite song and why?

01:20 - Michelle (Guest)
Yes, so my name's Michelle Cleary, located here in the US. As you can probably tell from my accent not as British as you are I'm a marketing procurement professional currently working for a real estate company called Anywhere so one of the largest real estate companies here in the US and I have specific oversight of marketing sourcing procurement here. That's been my background, specifically dedicated to marketing across my procurement career, really looking forward to diving into that category specifically. It's very nuanced, as I'm sure you know. Favorite song this has been the one I've been stressing out the most out of all the questions. But I do have an answer. I was a teenager in the 90s in America and for us that means alternative punk, emo music.

02:00 - Mike (Host)
That was my bread and butter as a teenager.

02:02 - Michelle (Guest)
So I would say one of my favorite bands is Blink-182. And my favorite song is Adam's Song by Blink-182. Probably not their happiest of songs, but I think it embraces the angsty teenager that I think, even in your 40s you can still relate to.

02:17 - Mike (Host)
Absolutely right, correct, very good, because it takes us back to a time. Music has a habit of taking us back to a time thinking about individuals and either great times or sad times, but it takes you back to that moment. So yeah, and everyone's got their own songs. So yeah, that's why I asked the question. So, michelle, let's get into the questions. So the first question is what's the value of engaging procurement early?

02:42 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, it's a great question. I think, like any procurement person probably has their list of things they scream into the void on a daily basis and one of them is early involvement. If I could put that on a t-shirt and sell it, I probably would. You know it's something that?

02:56 - Mike (Host)
yeah, good idea, michelle. Yeah, yeah, let's do that. Engage me early, yeah.

03:01 - Michelle (Guest)
Yes, I could probably give you about 10 things that every procurement person would put on a t-shirt, and that is probably the first one. Procurement can add the most value when they're involved early, and I think it's just something that is missed so often, and I think it's because, fundamentally, stakeholders, especially in marketing, don't really know what procurement does. They hear procurement and they think direct procurement. They think buying widgets, buying bottles, buying cans, buying packaging. I think indirect procurement is still so relatively new that they don't know what we do, so they don't know that they have to involve us early. But it's where we add the most value, when we're looped in.

03:37 - Mike (Host)
So let me explain again another perspective which you probably hear all the time agencies marketing agencies. Something else Again if I was writing t-shirt logos, one of them would be procurement are the devil, avoid them at all costs. I would wear that Especially around Halloween brilliant t-shirt. And that's what agencies think. Agencies think procurement are to be avoided, and if I can get the stakeholders to agree to what we want to do, they've got the budget. It's their money. Procurement will just have to sign the contract. So why is that a myth?

04:10 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, it's absolutely a myth. I think it could not be the more opposite. But I think again, it comes back to education with agencies and vendor partners as well. I get asked all the time why do I have to talk to procurement? Why am I not talking right to your CMO, your brand director, your head of technology? Why do I have to talk to you? And I think if I were to speak to an agency, like if an agency were listening to me right now, I think what you have to understand is procurement is a very tightly knit community and it's built on relationships right, both with agencies, with vendors, but also with other procurement folks. We are really great about knowledge sharing, leaning on each other and saying, hey, I'm looking for a partner to do X, y or Z. Can anyone recommend someone to me? It's so very relational and I think from the agency side that can be the kiss of death or it can be how you get more business.

04:59
Like and that is so often missed on the agency side is that procurement can be the gatekeeper a lot of time and is the gatekeeper.

05:06 - Mike (Host)
Yeah, definitely. And so now that hopefully any agency leader and it applies to any services business, anyone that deals with indirect is that engage with procurement early when it's a more strategic deal. I bang on about the Kraljit matrix. You know you want to be in the top right-hand corner. Lots of value to the client and a market of one as a supplier. That's where you really want to be and engage procurement early. So, assuming agencies listening and other professional services firms are going big deals, engage early, I get it. How should they engage early? So, way before an RFP is issued, what's the best way of engaging you as Michelle head of category marketing procurement in big brands 18 months ahead, what's the best way of engaging you?

05:50 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, it's a good question because I think so many people do it wrong. Like, I receive probably 20 to 30 cold calls, cold emails, cold LinkedIn's from agencies a week. I respond one to zero because most of them are very cookie cutter. They're very generic.

06:09 - Mike (Host)
So on that point. Just to reinforce that, michelle, a thousand requests a year, yep, and you reply probably to five, maybe ten. Max, okay so how should you do it?

06:22 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah. So my first thing is never send the cookie cutter response Like I have gotten ones where my name has not been replaced with the person that they sent it to five minutes ago, where it's clearly their copy pasting and sending it to people like that's just basics, but personalize it, like the ones that I respond to when I worked in the alcohol industry, like they would bring something relevant hey, I just saw a really great activation that your brand did at the US Open. Like, would love to talk to you about that. Like it shows that you did your homework. You understand my brand, you understand what we're actively doing, and it's not just hey, I can do stuff better.

06:56
You've at least tried to educate yourself on our brands and our space. I think that immediately hooks me. It's all about the hook. Like, why should I respond to your email? Pick up the phone when you call me? It's a hook, right. So showing that you understand the brands is super important. And also, like, don't go full bore into predatory salesperson. Like, work to that, don't just jump right in at the beginning.

07:19 - Mike (Host)
Don't do the full Nicolas Cage. It's a bad idea.

07:22 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, it's just such a turnoff and it's so obvious.

07:26 - Mike (Host)
Exactly.

07:27 - Michelle (Guest)
It's just an immediate. I'm not going to respond to you. If you're going full on used car sales guy approach, it's just not going to work.

07:33 - Mike (Host)
So lesson number one hyper personalization yes, got to be really specific to you and your context. Lesson number two don't sell, educate, yeah. Number two don't sell, educate.

07:42 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, because I know you're trying to sell me on something You're not reaching out to me because you want to like chat about, and that's okay, like that's fine.

07:48 - Mike (Host)
Yeah, that's fine. We all know what the game is, but just do it in a way which is helpful and respectful, because you're busy.

07:54 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, correct, and I always like agencies that point out like a point of differentiation, right, like something that they feel sets them apart Because there's a lot of people out there doing the exact same thing. So show me something that sets you apart, send me a link, send me a sizzle reel, like something that's not just a boring sales pitch.

08:15 - Mike (Host)
And, by the way, agencies listening please and I'll see what Michelle said about this please do not say the agency was founded by me in a shed with Fritz the cat. It was very lonely, it was in 1974. However, we persevered. Now we have amazing people and we have amazing methodologies, and we're the ones to go to. How does that work in terms of differentiation?

08:36 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, it reminds me of like when you find a recipe online and you just want the recipe, but you have to scroll through the person's life history to get to the recipe, exactly. Yeah, just like cut to the chase. Do not send me the Magna Carta. I don't need to know about your humble beginnings in the barn with the cat.

08:56 - Mike (Host)
Like not really Exactly. Yeah, it might be very interesting for the agency leader.

08:57 - Michelle (Guest)
Not fascinating for the buyer? Yeah, Especially if you're very like you're laboring on those points. Exactly, Some people do that.

09:03 - Mike (Host)
So I interviewed a guy called Uli Appelbaum on the podcast and that's, in fact, just been released today, which is the 13th of November, and one of the things that Uli he's a brand strategist. One thing he talks about is and we had a great discussion around be distinctive. You don't have to be truly unique, because in this world it's really hard to be truly unique, but stand out, stand for something, have an opinion, have a point of view, have a personality, be emotional. Totally agree.

09:30 - Michelle (Guest)
That's a point of differentiation, right.

09:32 - Mike (Host)
Exactly Makes you stand out. As long as it's for professional reasons and you're not being a clown, then that's a good thing, Totally agree. So this next kind of like point links into our next question. Just tell me, of a hundred things that you've procured in marketing services over a period of time one, two, three years what percentage are with agencies that you didn't know and hadn't had referred at the start of that process?

09:59 - Michelle (Guest)
Just illustratively. Yeah, no, I love that question. I think it's a different answer depending on if I was sourcing for Europe or sourcing for America.

10:06 - Mike (Host)
Oh, interesting.

10:07 - Michelle (Guest)
Very different dynamics and I've been in global roles where I've had to support in different countries. In the US, I would say more than 50% is new agencies. The US is really trending towards smaller boutique niche agencies, whereas when I source for Europe, especially in EMEA, they want the big guys. They don't want to talk to a little guy, they want the large agencies out there. Usually your CMO has a link to somebody there, so it is sort of old school, I guess, for lack of a better word. But in Europe I would say 99% of the time it's someone knows somebody and that's who I have to talk to. The US is the opposite.

10:43 - Mike (Host)
Interesting, very interesting, different regional dynamic. So let me just follow that question up with another question, which is assume that you're buying, you're solving a problem or addressing an opportunity that requires niche expertise and you've got an incumbent niche expertise provider who are doing a great job. You've got two that have been referred and you've got two that you found via LinkedIn or somewhere else. How often do the ones that you found this isn't leading the witness? This is genuinely. You've got five suppliers, five agencies. They're all niche, they're all specialists. How many times again do you pick the kind of the two way outsiders? What kind of chance do they stand? Because people ask me all the time they go is it worth it, Mike? Is it really worth it?

11:23 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, I think so. I would say very recent examples. I have run RFPs for brands that have had an incumbent for years, like almost 10 years, which personally I think that's a bad idea. No, you should never have the same agency on account for that long. So we had a strong, established incumbent on two very, very large global brands and the winner of the RFP was a brand new agency to the company. I do think that it's worth it, with caveats. I think a good person can sniff out if it's a pricing exercise, if there really is business to win. There's some pretty clear red flags on if there's even business to actually win out of this RFP. I think, again, the niche expertise is something that's becoming very needed in the United States, especially in marketing. We here do so much targeted multicultural marketing that we look for agencies that understand that consumer demographic. It's not your breadth and depth as a big global agency, it's do you understand this niche consumer base?

12:19 - Mike (Host)
Exactly Very good, so I'm going to get the shovel out and dig further into the rabbit hole. Yes, so let me see if I can get this square in my head. You've gone to market. You've found five agencies one incumbent, two that you knew really well through referrals, two you didn't know. The incumbent's doing a really good job, so they're on their second generation, so maybe they've been in for six years and you've gone to market, but they're doing a really good job. And because and let's say broadly, you want to do something similar that you've done before, with a few tweaks, and you want some new creatives, but broadly, you're buying the same kind of thing. Yeah, how does an agency get your attention during the process, during the RFP process, to make you go, wow, okay, even though we're buying something very similar, like for like, basis, similar sort of spend, similar sort of scope. This is really interesting. This outsider has become a real front runner. What does an agency need to do to make that a reality? Just lessons learned from the buy side.

13:18 - Michelle (Guest)
I think that the biggest thing they can do is listen. Listen to what we're saying in our brief of what our challenges are and what problem we're looking to solve, and then when you have a Q&A like typically within a week or so of getting a brief you should have a Q&A with the client. Listen to the answers. A lot of times what I find with the incumbent is there's a level of complacency, even if they're doing a good job. There's complacency there where, like, they tend to have the mindset of, well, we've been enrolled for so long, like clearly we're doing something right.

13:48 - Mike (Host)
Why would you switch?

13:49 - Michelle (Guest)
Why would you switch? And they don't tend to listen to maybe some of the challenges that we're putting out there and some feedback. The agencies that come in like the dark horse that comes in and snatches it out from under the incumbent they listen, they take feedback, especially if it's a multi-round pitch, like if you pitch me in round one and you make it to round two, I'm going to give you feedback, good and bad. Take the feedback Pivot. Listen to what I'm telling you. Work didn't work.

14:16
Exactly Like don't assume that your stuff is awesome.

14:18 - Mike (Host)
No one's perfect, so listen to your own Kool-Aid.

14:20 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, get out of your own way. Be open to feedback.

14:22 - Mike (Host)
Yeah, exactly, and then again with the shovel out in the rabbit hole. Talk to me about risk. I talk a lot to agencies about you know, when I was a buyer, one of my things was I'm a kind of guardian of the brand. So when we bring in new suppliers, that's always risky because we haven't worked with you before. So trust becomes an issue. Operational risk, financial risk, reputational risk there's many aspects to risk. Just talk to me about your experience again over the many years you've been doing this in marketing procurement. What are the risk elements and how would you recommend agencies talk about them?

14:55 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, I think it's a good call out because there's always a level of uncomfortability, especially if you're moving a large brand or a big chunk of your business to a new partner. That creates uncomfortableness, especially at a high level. I think it's the job of the agency to really talk to mitigate those concerns up front, like one of the things we always ask is like if we hire you tomorrow, are you staffed to even take on this level of business Like or do you need?

15:20 - Mike (Host)
a real-. Can you cope with our payment terms? Right the working capital stretch If we pay all 90 days? Are you okay with that?

15:26 - Michelle (Guest)
I think that there's things, very tactical things like that Payment terms, our MSA language, like that the procurement person can get ahead of. Like I tend to send all of that as part of my RFP package. Here's the brief, here's how I need you to respond. Oh, by the way, here's all our legal stuff. So if there's red flags in there, tell me up front so we can flush those out up front. But I do think a new to client agency does need to do a bit of I won't say schmoozing, but like getting that comfortability there. Come, meet the people in person. Don't rely on Zoom meetings Like go spend the money to shake their hand in person and meet them and be clear with anything. Like we need a month to staff up or we're ready to go. Be transparent and honest, Exactly.

16:10 - Mike (Host)
So that leads us nicely on to the next question, which is the critical role of team chemistry in an RFP process. Talk to me about that.

16:18 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, I think this is another thing that agencies heavily discount and don't understand. So, like a fun insider beneath the sheets, procurement for agencies out there, no-transcript, so don't think you're not being scored on that, it is.

16:35 - Mike (Host)
Absolutely.

16:36 - Michelle (Guest)
Is it weighted as heavily as your creative? No, but it's probably 20% of your overall weighting.

16:41 - Mike (Host)
So I'd say 20 to 40% could be at stake.

16:44 - Michelle (Guest)
Yes, for sure. So it is not something to take lightly. You know? Another t-shirt idea RFPs are like speed dating we're interviewing each other. Right, it's as much a chemistry check as a skills check.

16:59 - Mike (Host)
Right, it's as much a chemistry check as a skills check, and I think agencies have to understand that. One thing I used to love during any kind of process whatever the discipline was that I was buying was asking the difficult question and people said, oh, you're just being a bit of a git, mike, you're being difficult, blah, blah and I'm like no, what you've missed is I'm trying to work out how you respond to a tough situation that we're going to face when we work together. I could care less about the exact answer, but I'm really interested in how you engage in the question and how you engage in the thinking and how your team engages in that thinking. What are your thoughts?

17:28 - Michelle (Guest)
No, 100%. And I think, like the chemistry goes both ways, just like the client is feeling that out on their end, you, as the agency, should be feeling that out on your end too. If this doesn't feel like a good client, if it feels like a red flag client, have that self-awareness Like I just recently had this. I was running an RFP in an agency that I knew very well was invited. We had our Q&A and the owner called me. He said listen, we're going to politely decline this doesn't feel't the right fit. After we did a little more digging, they were not the right fit. He had the self-awareness to recognize that and say listen, let's talk when there's something that's more fit for purpose. There's nothing wrong with that.

18:06 - Mike (Host)
Yeah, and it doesn't mean no forever, it just means no, not now.

18:09 - Michelle (Guest)
It's the opposite of agencies that try to say they can do everything.

18:24 - Mike (Host)
No, everything Nope. And if you try and say to us you can do everything, we simply don't believe you. No, the red flag emoji comes up Exactly. And even with network agencies, with tens, or sometimes hundreds of subsidiaries that they've pulled together, even then it's like, really, do you all work together in an integrated way, or is it multiple brands all turning up for a pitch?

18:34 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, it feels very forced and I run into that too, especially in the US, like I said. You know, there's a lot of times where we need multicultural agencies, depending on the brand, and with some of the bigger, like the really big global conglomerates, they'll say oh, we have a multicultural arm and you talk to them and it just kind of feels inorganic, forced. Like you knew, this is a need in the market, so you kind of put together this entity, but it doesn't really feel natural, like people realize that they pick up on it.

19:01 - Mike (Host)
They do so. Last question, then we'll just put it all together. So the power of transparency when engaging procurement. Just talk about what you mean by that.

19:09 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, like I said, I appreciate transparency so much, like I want to know if things are unclear in a brief, if you feel like the timeline that we put together is super challenging, if the budget is like not based in any reality, like give me feedback. I always encourage agencies to do that with one caveat of when you're pitching, don't go in with the mindset of just saying everything the brand is doing now is terrible, like we want feedback on how maybe we can pivot and do things better. But don't just come and say everything is garbage, we're going to scrap it all, we're going to start from scratch. You're never going to win business that way. That's not what anybody wants to hear and it comes off very negative.

19:47 - Mike (Host)
Exactly right.

19:48 - Michelle (Guest)
But transparency is so important and I think again, it's a two-way relationship. I pride myself on giving very transparent feedback when agencies don't win an RFP, even when it's really difficult feedback that I have to give. I think that agencies appreciate it and I think how are you going to know what you could have done differently to win when you pitch again?

20:08 - Mike (Host)
Exactly right. So let's kind of end it with not which t-shirt logo should we have, but let's end it with what are your top three to five takeaways for agencies specifically, or any professional services firm that is trying to get into a net new client, not the incumbent, but you're trying to get net new work, net new logos. What are your top three tips for engaging with procurement?

20:32 - Michelle (Guest)
I would say number one like become friends with the procurement person. Like build that relationship, not only for that specific client but along that procurement person's journey. I take good agencies with me as I move jobs. I leave bad ones behind, so it's a career relationship. Don't think of it just in the client silo. Procurement is absolutely your friend. We're not here to be the bad guy, so forge that relationship. I would say, if you're really trying to break in, net new whether it be a new industry for you or new client base find out where they show up. If they go to conferences, maybe go there. If they're at certain events, go there and meet the people. Like do that grassroots type of business development and then, like we talked about at the beginning, the third thing is just be authentic and be natural. Don't be the predatory salesperson. Like come across authentically and naturally when you do approach people.

21:20 - Mike (Host)
Michelle, brilliant. Where can people find out more about you?

21:23 - Michelle (Guest)
Sure, I'm on LinkedIn, Michelle Cleary. I'm very active on there, very open to chat with people. Feel free to shoot me messages. I'm pretty responsive there, so I'd love to engage.

21:31 - Mike (Host)
Perfect. And again, one last thing that I've talked to a lot of people about and I find works for me is if you're trying to engage with someone, build the start of a relationship, why don't you comment on their LinkedIn post in a meaningful way, with something sensible, not wow, that was great.

21:46 - Michelle (Guest)
That's going to get you nowhere.

21:47 - Mike (Host)
Thumbs up. Yay, that's going to get you nowhere Agreed, but a sensible comment brings some new insight, brings some added value, always, always, always helps.

21:56 - Michelle (Guest)
Yeah, agreed. I would say one of the most successful reach outs someone has done with me is they clearly researched me. They sent me a note and said hey, I saw you're a Ravenclaw. I'm a Ravenclaw too. Let's chat, because it's in my LinkedIn bio I'm a Ravenclaw.

22:08 - Mike (Host)
Yeah, they actually read it. They took the time to read it. Yes, exactly, Michelle, it's been amazing. Thank you ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to Higgle the B2B Sales Club podcast series with your host, Mike Lander. Please subscribe so that you'll catch all the next episodes.