Showing Authenticity in Negotiations with John Cornwell

Mike Lander (00:01.411)
Yep, I've got recording signal.
Mike Lander (00:08.451)
John, thanks ever so much for joining me on the B2B Sales Club podcast. I really appreciate it.

John Cornwell (00:24.915)
My pleasure, thank you for having me.

Mike Lander (00:27.171)
So John, let's kind of kick off with first of all, kind of basically who you are. So kind of who you are, what you do, what your role is and what your background is.

John Cornwell (00:35.278)
Of course. So, well, I've been at Ogilvy for a number of years in a variety of different roles. I've been the CFO for a couple of our UK businesses. I've worked in regional roles. I led commercial strategy operations for Alwimia region. I've worked in New York. More recently, I was the CFO and CEO of our UK business. That was probably up until about September last year. And I'm now the chief

commercial officer for the group globally, which is a great role. I mean, it's really without getting into too much detail, we're focused on obviously on our commercial strategy. That's everything from pricing strategies to commercial models, to how we partner with some of our largest clients, how we position ourselves in a new business situation, particularly obviously in terms of the commercial side of that equation. And then very much about the behaviors that we want to see across our own organization and how we train and develop.

our teams to continue to raise the bar in that regard. So it's a great role in that respect.

Mike Lander (01:36.783)
Sounds fantastic. What's the kind of scale of Ogilvy? How big are you?

John Cornwell (01:43.606)
What can I say? I mean, I should know the number of offices we're in, but clearly we're a global network. I have to be careful with that one, Mike, in terms of the numbers that we're permitted to disclose.

Mike Lander (01:49.858)
Yeah.

Mike Lander (01:56.579)
So John, we'll cut that out. So to the editorial team, cut out this section about asking John about the scale of Ogilvy. And we'll just go straight into the questions.

John Cornwell (02:04.226)
Great. Okay, did you want me to say something about myself? Wonderful.

Mike Lander (02:08.579)
Yes please yeah.

John Cornwell (02:12.322)
So I guess that's the work side. You asked about me, I guess, what can I say that you wouldn't necessarily suspect? I'm a cyclist, I'm not built like a cyclist, but never underestimate a minor bike going up a hill. And I've just been studying actually, I have a fine interest in wine, collecting it as much as the occasional glass. And so I just, just in my, we set level two, which for those that know that program is not bad. I managed to get the distinction somehow.

Mike Lander (02:22.413)
Huh?

Ha ha ha.

Mike Lander (02:32.415)
Uh.

Mike Lander (02:41.189)
Well done.

John Cornwell (02:41.262)
So I'm really going to go on to do level three and level four, which is actually a diploma, but I don't think that's compatible with work. So that's probably at some time in the future. But yeah, so two of my passions cycling and a nice glass of red wine.

Mike Lander (02:54.527)
Oh, really interesting. Well, I mean, just out of interest, how did you get into wine as a passion?

John Cornwell (03:00.578)
You know what, if I'm honest, I think it was at a very, very young age, coming back on family holidays with my father. And we would always stop, though, obviously, in those days, I sound like an old man, but you could bring wine back into the UK, you know, reasonable quantities. And we would stop somewhere on the way and stock up on wine. And I used to find my dad around the supermarket looking at labels, and he would educate me on kind of what this meant, what that meant, what he was looking for.

Mike Lander (03:26.882)
Interesting.

John Cornwell (03:29.266)
And I guess it's always stuck. And obviously as I've got older and learned to appreciate, not just why, but you know, the methods and, uh, how that whole industry has developed. I've just always found it incredibly interesting. You know what it's like if it's something that you're interested in, then it sticks. Uh, so yeah, it's certainly something I enjoy learning more about.

Mike Lander (03:44.667)
Correct.

Mike Lander (03:48.111)
which is probably no different to negotiation. If you're interested in it, then it becomes a bit of a passion and then you get better at it because it's interesting. So let's kind of get into the first question. So in the kind of the pre-record call, we talked about one particular topic, which is kind of the psychological and emotional behaviors in negotiations and how can you spot them and how do you deal with them?

John Cornwell (03:54.882)
Very true.

John Cornwell (04:15.886)
So I think it's a great question actually, because I think those of us that negotiate readily have probably experienced a situation in which emotion has come to the table. And I think it comes in two forms, if we want to be kind of simple about it, either genuine, that could be the pressure on either party, that could be the frustration over perhaps not making the progress, or other factors that may not be obvious during the exchanges. Or I think it can also be a tactic.

It can be a technique and actually understanding the difference between the two is really important because you do I would argue you deal with them slightly differently. But I think I mean, certainly, I guess when it's extreme, I think calling a timeout is a wild thing to do. I think you can.

Try to bring the conversation back down to, you know, what is the purpose in the negotiation? What is it? Both parties are trying to get from it and try to bring it back down to, you know, we often talk about interests and proposals to push a conversation forward. So try to bring it back down to that level and take the emotion out of the, out of the room. It's not always easy. And that's why sometimes taking a time out is wise. And I would, I would caution using it as a tactic. I think it can be done.

Mike Lander (05:15.137)
Exactly.

John Cornwell (05:33.082)
I don't like it because I think you lose authenticity and you can very quickly lose a bit of credibility if you're not careful. But I think it's important to understand when the party you're negotiating with may be using as a tactic. As I say, then there's, yeah, that's slightly different to genuine emotion, which clearly needs to be dealt with and removed from the room. Whereas as a tactic, you might just play it slightly differently. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's how I see emotion in kind of negotiating.

Mike Lander (05:56.505)
Exactly.

John Cornwell (06:02.242)
context.

Mike Lander (06:04.591)
And just on that kind of topic around kind of emotion and interests, certainly. I've always thought, and obviously the books tell you the same thing, which is interests are the kind of the motivations that sit behind someone's demands. Cause I say to people though, find out what their interests are. And they're like, what do you mean? Do you mean what they do in their kind of like away from work time? I'm like, no, what's driving them?

to meet the demands they're making. Is that what you find as well?

John Cornwell (06:37.822)
Yes, but I think you use a really interesting word there in terms of demands, because demands and interests aren't necessarily the same thing. And if we're not careful in a negotiation and we just hear the demands, you're not necessarily getting beneath that to understand, okay, what really are the interests? What are we genuinely trying to solve here? And it's only getting to that question, or at least the answer to that question, that I think you can really move, not just the negotiation forward, but in that direction where you start to...

Mike Lander (06:44.123)
Correct.

John Cornwell (07:08.834)
find resolutions that work for both parties. If you focus on demands, the chances are it's going to be a little bit more win-lose in terms of the style and approach, and that clearly isn't a great way to take or handle a negotiation. So I think we really have to be careful. Demands, particularly if you're dealing with procurement, procurement will have a certain style and they'll make certain demands. But to your point behind that, there will be, and sometimes it might be obvious, but often it's not. As I say, what is the business problem or what is the

Mike Lander (07:15.212)
Yep.

John Cornwell (07:37.262)
What is it from this negotiation that the client really wants? And that isn't necessarily the same as what they're demanding.

Mike Lander (07:43.611)
Absolutely. And in fact, I think over my years of experience, probably yours, John, as well, that becomes one of the key things in creating success in the negotiation and unlocking an awful lot of value and taking the heat out of the moment as well is getting behind what are your real interests? What's going on here?

John Cornwell (08:04.318)
I completely agree. And back to where we started in terms of emotion, it's a nice way of taking that emotion out of the room. I mean, funny enough, talking about emotion, Mike, I'll share a very brief example with you, but just for listeners in terms of where it can be a tactic. So we were negotiating with a client that we knew very well, one of our larger relationships. We would have typically annual negotiations, but there would be things that say that might come up during the year, which would...

need resolving and so on. So we knew one another well, both parties, a lot of respect, they were tough, but generally fair clients. And this on this particular occasion, it wasn't just that it got emotional, it got emotional so quickly, it was hard to understand quite what had written it to that point so soon in the discussions. What's more, what we had, let's say tabled to move the negotiation forward.

Mike Lander (08:52.183)
Yeah, yeah.

John Cornwell (09:01.842)
I knew it was really reasonable. So I was a bit lost as to what was going on. And it's in this particular situation, there were two new clients in the room. When I say knew that we knew the clients, but they weren't typically involved in the negotiation. So anyway, emotions get high very, very quickly. Next thing I kid you not papers, books from across the side of the table, thrown at me and the client who I know, know very well stands up on walks out the room, slams the door. So.

Mike Lander (09:22.036)
Ha ha ha!

John Cornwell (09:30.794)
Okay, that's a good time to take the time out. So we can reconvene. Yeah, we reconvened. Anyway, the reason I share that is later, once we got past the negotiation, the next time I saw this client, they explained to me that the pressure that they were under to demonstrate, so the other clients in the room were from another part of their network who felt that the global clients managing the agency relationships weren't looking after their interests.

Mike Lander (09:33.763)
Sounds like it, yes.

John Cornwell (09:58.89)
And so this was designed so we, obviously you could be forgiven for thinking that was a tactic to unsettle the agency, right? To put us on the back. Actually, it wasn't at all. They were trying to show the clients in the room that they did have their best interests at heart and they were really pushing the agencies as far as they possibly could now we can debate whether that's the right way to do it, but that was the reason for the emotion that, um, escalated very quickly and the reaction. So it had nothing to do with us whatsoever. So it's very easy to, um,

Mike Lander (10:05.741)
Yes.

John Cornwell (10:28.554)
As I say, you need to deal with the emotion, but sometimes it's not always what it seems, if that makes sense.

Mike Lander (10:33.167)
How did you manage to understand that? Did you understand it in the moment, or did you kind of like after the event go, what was going on here? I wonder if that was the dynamic.

John Cornwell (10:46.11)
I must be honest, in the moment, absolutely not. I couldn't, particularly because I knew the client well and we had a very good working relationship. I couldn't understand how it, if you like, got out of control so quickly. So no, I didn't. And in fairness, although when we reconvened, things were more civil and we got to a point that I think we're all happy with. No, it was only talking to the client, I forget, but sometime after that it transpired.

But that was the case. So no, it was a very strange situation for me. Not one that has happened too often, which I'm pleased about.

Mike Lander (11:19.695)
Exactly. And not the kind of thing you can read in a book either. That's an experiential thing.

John Cornwell (11:24.094)
No, and you're right. You know, you can, you can have negotiation training, you can read in the book and they're all great and absolutely valid, but actually it's only through living and breathing and enough negotiations and experiencing those types of behaviors that you can remain calm and you can understand how best to deal with it.

Mike Lander (11:41.115)
Exactly. And just to kind of polish off that question, a very good friend of mine years and years ago said the moment that you become emotionally attached to the outcome is the moment you've kind of lost the deal. And I think it still rings true in my mind now is that being passionate about what you do is critical, but being emotionally attached is a very bad idea.

John Cornwell (12:04.139)
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Mike Lander (12:06.627)
So John, second question. So the importance of negotiation preparation and kind of like, you know, sub questions knowing when you've won and about discounting and how that works in your kind of preparation thinking, et cetera.

John Cornwell (12:23.662)
Okay, well, I think when we talk about preparation, I would argue, although there are various stages to a negotiation, I would argue that is the most important for many reasons. Not least, if you prepare correctly, and that isn't five minutes in the taxi on the way to the client, you know, I'll leave you all with this question, you can make some notes, let's see. You know, that happens probably far too often, but clearly isn't anything close to ideal.

Mike Lander (12:41.108)
Correct.

John Cornwell (12:49.602)
But so preparation is key if you think about it, even some of the things we've talked about already, you know, for instance, okay, if the client gets emotional, how might we respond? You know, what questions are we going to ask to really understand their interests? We think we know what they want, but we might not be wrong. You know, what's our, what's how I always say to my team, you must have a walk away point. It sounds very obvious, but if you don't have a point in which you're prepared to say no, then don't be surprised if you come back in the agreement that you're not going to be happy with. And, and you have to stick to it. You have to mean it.

Mike Lander (13:09.211)
correct.

John Cornwell (13:19.498)
Like what information are you going to share? What information are you going to ask for? Et cetera, et cetera. So you can start to, what alternatives do we have if we can't reach an agreement? Yet you have to go through that process. I think firstly to drive a better outcome, but also it gets the team aligned on the approach and how we're going to play it and how we might respond to difficult questions. So for me, preparation is actually the absolute key. And I think sometimes also,

Mike Lander (13:28.718)
Yeah.

Mike Lander (13:46.255)
Completely agree. Absolutely.

John Cornwell (13:48.454)
Yeah, sometimes also, Mike, I think we have to put ourselves in our client shoes. That doesn't mean we give the client everything they're asking for. But I think only when we understand the position they're in, that they have their business challenges just like we do. But if we start to think how they might think or better understand the pressure they're under, I think it's really good context for how you manage not just the negotiation, but the tone of that negotiation and so on and so forth.

And you can be better prepared for emotions if they come to play. I mean, again, if you don't mind, I'll share an example with you. So many years ago, we were pitching, I say many years ago, not long ago, but we were pitching for a piece of business that we desperately wanted to win. The CEO at the time I knew was actually desperate to land this particular piece of business, and so if we weren't careful, I could see what would happen. We would get into that negotiating room.

Mike Lander (14:24.299)
No, please do.

John Cornwell (14:45.978)
And when it ended up giving everything away. So, um, the night before the first meeting with procurement, we, this was a big piece of business. We knew this was going to be, you know, even on a good day, a number of rounds and so on and so forth. I kind of scripted how I thought the meeting would go, you know, how, how the client would open the meeting. You know, you're totally said too expensive. You're one of three agencies left, but if you can't meet our targets, you won't make it through to the next round. You know, the, the formula. Yes.

Mike Lander (15:10.351)
Sounds familiar, John. Yeah, heard that before, yeah.

John Cornwell (15:15.182)
And so I scripted the meeting as I thought it would go, agreed we would meet for coffee beforehand and just chat it through. And you won't be surprised to hear that, give or take, the meeting largely followed that kind of pattern. And we did that for, I'm going to say, three or four rounds. I did the same thing, same approach. This is what I think they'll open with. This is the kind of pressure they will put on us. Here's how I think we should respond, I think. And I think it was after...

I don't know, so at the same meeting three, meeting four, or negotiation three or four, and we're walking out of the client's building and my CEO just had this enormous smile on her face and I said, why are you smiling? We just had a really, really tough negotiation. And she said, I get it. I get it. She called it the game.

And now they're further rounds, but then you had to still desperate to win it. We still wanted to land it as a business, but you had a real ally in the room, right? You weren't trying to negotiate with your own people as much as you were the clients. And, and that was a great, uh, to your earlier point about you need to experience these things to believe it. I often say to our people, you have to be, you have to be comfortable being uncomfortable, otherwise you're not doing it right and you have to go through that, um, emotion, if you like that.

Mike Lander (16:12.303)
Yes.

Mike Lander (16:26.949)
That's right.

John Cornwell (16:31.786)
that you, because the first time you do it, you'll feel like you've blown it. You've pushed procurement too far. You've might not be procurement the client too far. You're not going to win, et cetera. And then guess what you do when you've got a better deal for both parties. And you start to believe that this is actually a sensible, smart way to run agency negotiations. And once you've lived through that experience, like the individual I mentioned earlier has, then they're a convert and then pretty much any negotiation that follows, they might need a little reminder occasionally.

Mike Lander (16:49.473)
Exactly.

John Cornwell (16:59.51)
you've got somebody in the room that is prepared to support the strategy, which again is part of the preparation, being sure we're all relying on exactly what we're going to do. And actually, if we think about that in the context of new business, if we, you tell me if you disagree, but knowing you, I suspect you won't. But if you're negotiating with procurement in detail, let's say as part of a pitch process.

Mike Lander (17:21.071)
Ha ha.

John Cornwell (17:26.562)
then I would argue there are only two reasons why that negotiating is happening. Most likely you've already won and procurement have been charged with getting the best possible price from the agency that they want to appoint for their business. Or it's possible you may have lost, but somehow there's, I don't know, there's leverage that the client can have by negotiating with you to put pressure on another agency. Either way, why would you, we'll get onto discounting in a minute, but...

Mike Lander (17:54.637)
Yeah.

John Cornwell (17:54.662)
Why would you reduce your price? Because you've already won or you've already lost. So, and I think if you go into that negotiation with that mindset, then that is very, very different to how agencies typically approach those negotiations where you assume you're gonna have to meet procurement's demands and give X, Y, and Z. Now, don't get me wrong, there is a negotiation, there's a dance to be done with your clients typically in our world, it's procurement, but you mentioned discounting.

Mike Lander (18:18.747)
Cools.

John Cornwell (18:22.754)
But a negotiation is a trade. Yeah, trading items. So if you're just reducing your price and you come back to the agency and say, well, that was a tough negotiation. Wasn't a negotiation at all. You just give them it away, you've discounted. So I do think I wish more agencies would think in that way when they get into those difficult conversations with clients. And I say that because it sounds like, I've said procurement a few times.

Mike Lander (18:25.388)
Exactly.

Mike Lander (18:36.432)
Correct.

John Cornwell (18:50.942)
I don't blame procurement at all for their approach. I mean, why wouldn't you keep asking if people keep saying yes? So, and I think agencies have to recognize the role that we have played. I don't say now demise that's too strong, but in the pricing that is now seen in the marketplace, because for too long, we've just been saying yes and giving things away, discounting to your point to oversimplify. So agencies now need to steer our way out of this mess, if you like, and only by bringing value back to the table by...

Mike Lander (19:09.551)
Exactly.

John Cornwell (19:19.762)
having a proper negotiation strategy and sticking to the plan, will we get there? And I don't know if I'm answering your discounting point, but discounting is just, well, we're just going to drive the price in the market even lower. And guess what? We're going to struggle to. Yeah. And we're very, I would argue, close to that point now. Yeah.

Mike Lander (19:28.867)
No, you are definitely.

Mike Lander (19:36.251)
Correct. It's a torched earth. And who wants to own a torched earth? Pointless. And I think if there's one thing, actually, John, from this episode, there's always one or two things people should pick up. As a basic principle, if you just change the word from discounting to trading, and agencies just did that, things would get an awful lot better.

John Cornwell (20:05.166)
couldn't agree more. And I couldn't agree more. And I think also be aware, it depends on what kind of training you've done. Everybody calls it something different, moment of truth, slicing the salami, but whatever it may be. But don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. You get to that final conversation with the client, you're there. Then again, quite rightly, the client's going to ask if you can do this, this and this, because we keep saying yes, as agencies, you have to stop or at least...

trade, have, you know, by all means have a list of things that you're prepared to concede. Understand what that, the value of that concession is to the client and ensure you're securing something in return. It's really simple, but in the heat of the moment, we seem to lose our way. And as you say, we're, we're very close to torch-surf as it is.

Mike Lander (20:52.575)
Exactly. And just negotiating against yourself is just a bad idea. I mean, we haven't talked about it, John, and we don't need to, but I've heard of people recently, agencies saying they've been asked to enter a reverse auction for their rate card. And I'm like, a reverse auction? We used to buy nails using reverse auctions. You don't buy creative services using a reverse auction.

I mean it's crazy. It's an unbelievably insane idea, I believe.

John Cornwell (21:27.618)
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. They're less prevalent now than they were. We still see them a bit in our health business. And don't get them wrong. We have had one recently, which I'm surprised about. But to your point, a crazy, you think about it, we work in an economy of ideas and innovation. Right. And so if you're, if you're coming into this industry now, or you're considering what, whatever you might do, ideas and innovation. Wow. Where do I sign? Then you get here, you find agencies are giving all that magic away. It's scratching your head. What?

Mike Lander (21:52.538)
Yes.

John Cornwell (21:53.758)
And that's effectively what these e-auctions or reverse auctions do. So you just have to, you have to agree what your walkway point is, right? You may, it may be you don't use your price at all. I, again, I like to think about it this way. If you're going into an e-auction, clients already decided which agency you want to work with. This is just a means, a crude way of trying to get the price down. There will be smaller agencies in there or agencies of less quality that have no intention of working with, but they know will be cheaper. It's purely to put pressure on you as an agency.

Mike Lander (22:02.107)
That's right.

Mike Lander (22:14.459)
correct.

Mike Lander (22:23.067)
That's right.

John Cornwell (22:23.562)
So you have to hold your nerve. And we have been the lowest price and not one. And we have been, well, I say lowest, one of the, we've been equally one of the highest price and still one. The decision is made. It's just a crude way to try and get a better price. So hold, we must hold our nerve. Fortunately, I think, as I say, they're not as prevalent as they once were, but is to your point, it's a crazy way to buy creative services, just madness.

Mike Lander (22:43.287)
It is. So John, very conscious of your time. So last question. So the importance of investing in training, mentoring, and feedback for your commercial leaders. Just touch on that for a second.

John Cornwell (22:49.431)
Yes.

John Cornwell (22:57.706)
Of course. So, I mean, I think it's vital. I think we never have, and I think this is true across the industry. We never have enough, um, availability, if you like, of our commercial leaders and thinkers for every client situation, whether it's new business, obviously trying to prioritize new business and existing client relationships. But, um, if you think about it, even if you put a great kind of commercial framework in place, actually every day, your teams are negotiating scopes, prices, and so on and so forth. You can't be in every one of those conversations.

So, training our people, I think, is absolutely key. And this is the best investment that we can make, right? It's not, I certainly wouldn't see it as a cost. I think it's a vital investment that we as agencies need to make. Back to your point about Torch Earth, we're all struggling with this. We all, the collective needs to be stronger. And funny enough, Mike, we developed, during the pandemic, we developed a negotiation skills, actually it's...

It's a commercial training program of which negotiation skills is part, but one that we felt we could deliver online. And so, you know, with trying to be more responsible environmentally and so and so forth, whilst I still think there's a role for face to face training, particularly when it comes to negotiation skills, you can record it. You can really give more dynamic feedback. Nonetheless, to raise what, let's say, is a relatively low, but a little bit higher, these online programs can really be very, very effective.

Mike Lander (24:11.809)
Yep, there is.

John Cornwell (24:24.83)
So we've done that example. We've also developed a commercial training platform that again, is more, you know, it's more of an entry level program. But we're trying to think of ways of getting all of our people through commercial training that was, you know, cost effective. At some point, you can't, you know, you can't train everybody face to face, given the number of people that we have.

Mike Lander (24:31.52)
Uh.

John Cornwell (24:49.65)
So yeah, but what's great about this is we actually cannot keep up with the demand now. People realize the importance it is for them to be successful in their career, but they enjoy it. The training is very attractive and we literally cannot keep up with the demand. So it's a rather long-winded answer to your question, but I see the training element of our role bringing the organization along this commercial journey with us is absolutely pivotal.

Mike Lander (24:56.472)
Brilliant.

Mike Lander (25:14.971)
And I think also, John, rightly, you're saying it's about upskilling the industry. The agency world, if we can train and develop people, because people move on, it's natural, they join their careers, then everyone benefits. I remember when I was an apprentice out of school at 16, and one of the things with all the engineering companies in our area, what they all said was, if we all train great apprentices, then we'll all benefit in the long run.

but you've got to take a slightly longer term view of the world.

John Cornwell (25:49.29)
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, you said it perfectly. And I think, you know, as I've sat on a number of different bodies, I sit on one now with the EACA and, you know, agency leaders, it's to your point, it's a shared challenge. We all are struggling with the same challenges in this regard and we'll, yeah, we all need to hold hands and in an appropriate way and be stronger. And I think training our...

Mike Lander (26:11.535)
We do.

John Cornwell (26:15.402)
people educating our people is key to that, but also being brave enough to give them, we talked about the importance of the experience. At some point, you need to let somebody have a go at this. And, you know, they won't always get it right, but we learn from our mistakes and in time. But I also think it's funny, I don't know if you would agree, but you said something at the start of the call, which I thought was interesting around negotiating, if you have a passion for it.

you know, you want to learn more and you get, but I think that's absolutely right. And I think we can train everybody, you know, as much as we possibly can. But ultimately, some individuals will be better, you know, disposed to negotiating, whether it's in comfortable in those difficult situations, because naturally there's support and the conflict, right? It's that's why we're negotiating. So not everybody will be able to be, you know, your, your 18 negotiator. That's okay. But.

Mike Lander (26:55.344)
They will.

Mike Lander (27:00.731)
That's right.

John Cornwell (27:09.698)
but there are plenty that will be and those that aren't, then you ensure they've got the support in the room. They'll be brilliant at other things. So I think it was very interesting you said that at the start of the corner. And again, I agree, it's a real challenge for us.

Mike Lander (27:21.171)
I think that's absolutely right, John. I think everyone should have the foundation skills, but we shouldn't force people to lead complex negotiations if their own personal disposition doesn't lend itself. But they will contribute to the negotiation in a different role, maybe. So no, I definitely agree. I think it's a really important point. So John, it's been fantastic. Thank you ever so much for preparing, which you have done clearly, and for joining in the conversation.

Where can people find out more about you?

John Cornwell (27:54.086)
Well, LinkedIn would be, I guess, the go-to, to be honest with you. I'm not so much on Twitter these days. And, yeah, and obviously, if there's interest in ogilvy.com, then obviously there's plenty on the website in that regard. We are also talking, Mike, just so you know, with some of the industry bodies, about some of the platforms that we've developed, because, to your point, I feel, if the industry at large raises its gain,

Mike Lander (27:59.597)
No.

John Cornwell (28:21.154)
then we all stand to benefit. So it might be that we can release some of the things we've developed to a wider audience if that's useful as well.

Mike Lander (28:28.815)
That'd be amazing. John, it's been a real pleasure. Thanks ever so much for joining me.

John Cornwell (28:32.831)
My pleasure. Thank you, Mike.

Mike Lander (28:35.147)
Right John, I'm just going to stop recording, stay on the line a minute and let's just check...