The 5 Steps to Immediately Increase Your Win Rates with Harry Kendlbacher

00:00 - Harry (Guest)
People make decisions for one out of two reasons either to gain an outcome or to avoid a risk. Those two are the main decision-making drivers, in a nutshell, and if the economy is uncertain, their main decision driver is really to avoid a risk. So when we talk about creating a sense of urgency, it's really about how do we have that cost of an action conversation, and what this refers to is really often hidden consequences of not making a decision.

00:34 - Mike (Host)
My name's Mike Lander and you're listening to Higgle the B2B sales club podcast, where we bring you actionable insights about sales, RFPs, negotiations and difficult procurement discussions from sales leaders, brand leaders and procurement leaders. Please subscribe to get updates when new episodes are released. Harry, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgled the B2B Sales Club podcast. Very good to have you.

01:03 - Harry (Guest)
Pleasure to be with you today, mike, and thank you.

01:05 - Mike (Host)
Today, Mike, and thank you for you. Invited me onto your show kindly and so obviously I've reciprocated. Got enormous value for the audience. Definitely, if you're listening now, definitely definitely stay tuned in because, as you'll find out anything about sales, harry is definitely your expert. So, harry, who are you, what do you do, and something unusual about yourself.

01:25 - Harry (Guest)
Sure, my name is Harry Kendelbacher. I'm the CEO and one of the founders of Global Performance Group. What do we do? We are a sales capability boutique that implements behavior change within organizations so that salespeople engage with all their wonderful stakeholders they have nowadays in their sales process with confidence and courage, really focus on the outcomes that they can provide, with the goal to increase win rates. And we differentiate ourselves in a crowded marketplace, as you know, through a highly scalable process, a real deal application, real deal tracking approach, through very comprehensive curriculum that we provide to our organizations. So we've been in business now for 11 years. Myself, I've been in the industry for 25 years, having worked for a couple of other companies in the sales training space, and I'm based in Salzburg, in Austria. If anybody has seen the sound of music, that's exactly where I live.

02:28 - Mike (Host)
The hills are really alive here.

02:31 - Harry (Guest)
Exactly. That's right, exactly, and something unusual about me, I guess it's unusual. So I have completed, I don't know, probably close to 80, 90 triathlons in my time, including seven Ironmans over my time, of course, the last one was 2017. It's a while ago. Still keep very fit, but that's, I guess, something a little bit unusual.

02:59 - Mike (Host)
How many triathlons?

03:01 - Harry (Guest)
Between 70 and 80. I forgot. It's all different distances, but the big ones are the Ironmans and I've done seven of them.

03:09 - Mike (Host)
And remind people that are listening the Ironman what's involved in one of those.

03:13 - Harry (Guest)
It is do you do miles?

03:15 - Mike (Host)
or kilometers Miles is good.

03:17 - Harry (Guest)
Yeah, sure, 2.1 miles swim, 112 miles cycle and then 26 miles run at the end.

03:29 - Mike (Host)
Good grief, and how long does that take?

03:32 - Harry (Guest)
An eternity, a lifetime, I know. You know the world record is something like below seven hours and 13 hours. It's crazy. And so I'm sort of the average Joe hobby athlete around 11-ish hours 11 to 12 hours depending on the course.

03:51 - Mike (Host)
So at that point, harry. Obviously, as a hobby runner, swimmer, cyclist, I guess it's no surprise that you run this sales performance improvement business, given that you're clearly a high performing hobby athlete. So let's move into the questions first of all, which are so? The first topic that we kind of said that we discuss is what are the five principles of how to increase win rates in your experience?

04:18 - Harry (Guest)
You know it's an interesting question. Win rates is pretty much and we talk to clients every day win rates, increasing them and a reduction in sales cycle or improved deal velocity, in other words, is really on their mind. You know the economy is a little bit uncertain at the moment. A lot of deals are stalling. I just heard a stat the other day that 80-ish percent of B2B decisions were stalled in 2024, which is interesting, and so everybody needs to win more, they need to win it faster and they need to win it more profitably. So you know, in my mind there are really five steps to increase win rates and I'm going to go through it quickly, one by one. So number one, in my opinion, is really effective deal qualification in the front end of the sales cycle. You know, is this a winnable piece of business? Is this in our ICP, have we really evaluated prospects based on the fit, on the need, on the budget, on the timeline, something that we can solve? Is the problem big enough, and so forth? And so have you really qualified? A winnable opportunity for us? That's step one.

05:32
Step two, in my opinion, is the idea of now we identified we can win this gig. Now we really got to strategically plan for the opportunity. You know we mentioned that there are so many stakeholders nowadays in everybody's gig. You know salespeople are drawn more to one persona than to others, depending on how, where they feel more comfortable. How do I strategically plan for my opportunity? Who are my stakeholders, what are all their anticipated needs, how do I engage with them, so forth? So, really plan out the opportunity. That's number two. Number three, in my opinion, is the idea of we call it key agreements, which is really, instead of seeing a sales process as a series of things I have to do as a salesperson, is really transforming them in key agreements that build consensus and commitment with stakeholders throughout it. But of course, it's something that salespeople don't like because it means I have to ask for something up front engagement, time, commitment and so forth, and a lot of the time these salespeople live in the land of hope and not in the land of what is in the land of hope and not in the land of what is.

06:47
Number four, in my opinion, is the idea of you have to have the courage nowadays to create this urgency, and we call it the cost of inaction. Maybe we can chat about it a little bit later, this idea of how do we communicate that value and the outcomes of your solution. How is it really uniquely showcasing some of the selling points and the competitive advantages that you can share? And that urgency is something that salespeople are really not good in driving.

07:16
And number five how do we close effectively, ask for the business, have the confidence to do that and, throughout it, protect margins. You know salespeople like to give things away early, soon, without anything in return, just to keep the thing alive. It's really, how do you implement that process and close with confidence and protect margins throughout it, especially at the end too? So in my mind, those are really the five key things. And one of the problems is Mike, that we always see is the many organizations who have maybe the first two or then the third one or the third and fourth, so elements of it, but if you're missing one, that really decreases your win rates. So having all five in place is really key to drive that.

08:04 - Mike (Host)
And if you looked, harriet, just kind of like broad empirical data based upon clients that you've spoken to over the many, many, many years and deals you've worked on, typically, if those characteristics are missing, what, broadly, is the win rate? And if they're in place, broadly, where might that win rate move to?

08:23 - Harry (Guest)
I go by the data that I read the other day, around 80% of decisions have stalled in 2024. And I could only assume and that's based on my assumption that one of the elements wasn't executed as well, so decisions were stalled. And what does that mean? By the way, that's an interesting point. It means that the customer has decided to do nothing.

08:54
Their pain wasn't big enough to be changing. Remember, change is a challenge for them. So my pain has to be big enough for me to go through the process of changing. And if the pain is not big enough and you can't make it big enough for me in a way, articulate and demonstrate the problem, how big it is and what impact it has on my business, then there is an issue. The second part to your question is I can only go by data and I have to make sure we'll keep this confidential. Large fortune, I guess, 200 company, maybe 250. We've implemented this process and they moved from a 30%, 31% win rate, excuse me to a 51% win rate, so to really win one out of two deals that's phenomenal.

09:38 - Mike (Host)
I would say that's definitely top quartile, absolutely. I mean very similar, harry, across the clients I've worked with. Typically the baseline is 20% to 30% is where they start on conversion rates, even if they've defined what that conversion rate really means, which often they haven't because they measure things in the pool that should or shouldn't be in there. Typically that should move with all the stuff you've talked about effective processes, system support, cultural change. You should be up at over 50%. I have seen rarely one client was up at 80%. I didn't work with them on that program. They worked over three years, but you're in very rare atmosphere at that point Exactly. So can you talk about your insights about why and how negotiation happens throughout the sales process? So pivotal agreements and this is definitely a topic we've discussed at length over many occasions because it's something close to my heart.

10:39 - Harry (Guest)
And you know it's interesting, there's a very common misconception out there that negotiation activity happens at the end of the sales process.

10:49 - Mike (Host)
Exactly.

10:50 - Harry (Guest)
When it comes to terms and conditions and the idea of, okay, first I sell, sell, sell, sell, sell to you and once you're convinced to buy from me, we negotiate terms and conditions. You know, selling and negotiating is really an integrated process in my opinion and you know, early on in the sales cycle you sort of establish whether you're going to do business together towards the end, is going to do how you do business together, but that isn't an excuse to really put the negotiation or the forming of agreement, should I say, to the end of the sales process. Really, the idea of what we call key agreements is it's something that I have to do early on in the process and it's so critical. I mean, I've been in this industry for 25 years and I've seen so many sales processes in my time hundreds probably. Some have three steps, some have 10 steps, but they all have one thing in common Nobody's using them right and salespeople are avoiding to use them.

11:54
And here is sales enablement, or some sales ops comes up with a sales process and puts three or four things I have to do to comply with at each stage and I say, yeah, sure, I've asked them some questions. Yeah, sure, I've identified what they're looking for. Let's move on to the next. You know the salespeople are treating the steps of the sales processes the ticking the box exercise, and that's wrong, and rather what they need to be doing is to think in client agreements and important early on in the sales process. So a key agreement, by definition, is a series of agreements throughout the sales process. Every agreement enhances your probability to win and let me give you an example just to make this easy.

12:43
For example, step two, let's say, of a sales process is typically discovery or needs identification, something similar like that. Let's call it discovery stage and usually it's ask questions, identify your needs, see what the client's problems are, and so forth. But really, what should be happening? So I, as a salesperson, get yes, I've done this, yes, I've done this, yes, I've done this. Let's move to proposal stage. Right, but really, what needs to happen is have you really agreed a number of small but pivotal and key agreements with the prospect or the client, right? Have you agreed on the necessity to change? Have you agreed upon budgets, on timeframes, on the outcomes that need to be achieved? Have you agreed on the decision-making process? Have you agreed to get access to all the key stakeholders in the process? If you don't, you know your probability of winning is very much smaller than if you would have all these elements. So really thinking about building these agreements one by one and a cumulative effect is the secret, really. And it's not a checklist, it's really a strategic approach.

13:58 - Mike (Host)
But salespeople hate it. But it's also the anchoring, harry, in that process. What you're doing in my negotiation language is, every time you form those pivotal key agreements, you're also anchoring a particular element of the deal. So you've got to anchor at the right point, because if you go back later on and you undermine that anchor, all sorts of horrible things can happen in the deal process.

14:27 - Harry (Guest)
Agreed, and a hidden benefit of having these key agreements in place and have your salespeople execute them is actually managers of sales teams find it much more easier to coach their salespeople to a series of agreements versus a step on the sales process. So that's a really nice nuance to that too, and honestly, I don't know why companies, why this is not standard practice. Very few companies have it. We do a lot of work around looking at existing sales process, recommending here are the key agreements and so forth, and then, of course, provide negotiation skills and behaviors for them to execute it.

15:11 - Mike (Host)
So one of my favorite hobby horses, which I ride around with most people that I talk to, is stop discounting and start trading In your key agreements. That's one element. Discounting and start trading In your key agreements that's one element is that if you start to introduce the language of discount in the buyer's mind, you're starting to sow very dangerous seeds, whereas the key agreements, if the salesperson's trained well through your methodology and with your people, stops that from happening.

15:40 - Harry (Guest)
Very true, we use a slightly different terminology, we call it exchange value, but in essence it's the same right. But it's so interesting, People have a mindset by thinking if I give something that will keep the situation alive and I mean, you're a professional buyer, a former professional buyer, right, and you have a lot of experience in the world of procurement Procurement is trained to ask for everything Exactly.

16:04 - Mike (Host)
It's a concession mode, right yeah exactly yeah, interesting dynamic.

16:09
It is very interesting about where you are. I think I've mentioned before this Kraljit matrix, a very simple tool for people listening. Very quick summary the Kraljit matrix was all about basically impact on the organization as a buyer, and then how many suppliers are there out there that can deliver the service and deliver the impact? If you're in the top right of that box, harry and we were discussing a deal, I'd be trying to collaborate with you, so those key agreements would become much more natural because we're trying to lock in certain elements of that deal and we're trying to build something together. If you're in the bottom left as a commodity, it's a dangerous place for the supplier to be, and I'm trained to create as much value as I can for my business broadly at your expense as a supplier, and that's a dangerous position to be in.

16:59 - Harry (Guest)
Absolutely, absolutely it is. It's a good tool.

17:03 - Mike (Host)
So third topic what's the cost of inaction? So, first of all, what do you mean by cost of inaction? And then how can salespeople deal with it during that sales process?

17:13 - Harry (Guest)
So the cost of inaction is something that links into our fourth step in the win rate sort of equation of the five steps, which is creating urgency. And how do you create urgency? It's interesting in this kind of environment right now. Deals are stalling, it's an uncertain economy for a variety of reasons at the moment. So you have to think about what does the research say about decision making? Right? And the research says people make decisions for one out of two reasons either to gain an outcome or to avoid a risk.

17:51 - Mike (Host)
Yeah.

17:52 - Harry (Guest)
Those two are the main decision-making drivers in a nutshell, and if the economy is uncertain, their main decision driver is really to avoid a risk. So when we talk about creating a sense of urgency, it's really about how do we have that cost of an action conversation? And what this refers to is really a framework used to highlight the real, often hidden, consequences of not making a decision or delaying an action. It helps potential customers and prospects to understand the tangible and intangible costs that occur by maintaining do nothing, the status quo basically, instead of taking a proactive step. That's what the cost of inaction conversation really is, and a lot of the times in our experience, the cost of inaction conversation is something that people confuse with the return on investment that I can potentially provide to you. Cost of inaction conversation is not the return on investment. The return on investment is something that potentially can be created as an outcome and as a result of that, the cost of inaction conversation really is. This is what you're missing every single day or every single week by staying still and do nothing. So connecting it really with the second decision driver, which is help me avoid a risk here, and that's basically the cost of an action conversation.

19:30
The problem is that salespeople have with, that is a lot of the times. They don't have the level of engagement they should be using the cost of an action conversation. Where does it help most? Of course, with the senior executives out there whose neck is on the line, if I can say that. But also it creates tension, it's uncomfortable, it creates a certain environment. If I have this cost of inaction conversation that challenges the thinking of the client somebody. Oh, we have to be relationship focused, and this over service relationship focused sort of mindset has them shy away from the natural tension that comes up by having something like the cost of an action conversation. So it's really, really key that people get out of their comfort zone, leverage the tension and have that cost of inaction conversation. I think you do customers and prospects a favor when you hold up the mirror and say look, this is what you're missing here and this is how you will be looking like if you don't do this in one, two or five months.

20:49 - Mike (Host)
Exactly, I think. A couple of just kind of thoughts to talk about. I think the management, kind of like book industry, did business a massive disservice back in the wow, probably 90s. The customer's always right and the sad thing is that seems to have stuck. Seems to have stuck when, as a buyer, I know it's like, I know I'm not always right, because there's there's unknowns, and what I'm looking for is for the seller to uncover those unknowns, show me where the problems are and then make me really think about the assumptions I'm making and the things that I've missed. And that's so valuable, so so valuable.

21:36 - Harry (Guest)
Yeah, exactly, and what also goes hand in hand with this is and we see this a lot with organizations we work with who have a very strong service mindset to serve the client and so forth is this premature problem-solving mindset. The customer says, oh, I have an issue with that, and then salespeople go away and do everything possible to solve that issue. Well, what they should be doing is really resist that temptation and step back and really not just react to a want that the client had, but really dig back into what is the need that drives that want. What are some of the unconsidered needs, underappreciated needs that you haven't considered or haven't appreciated that can impact in your business. That's where the rich discussion really starts. But again, salespeople really need to control themselves and resist that temptation of premature problem solving. And the customer is always right and my job is to give you what you're asking for. All these sort of things Very, very outdated.

22:48 - Mike (Host)
It is, and I think following on from that is and I think it's also an element of how many years I've been doing this, like you have is confidence. The more sales conversations I've been engaged with and the more confident I feel, the higher my conversion rate. Why? Because I'm not desperately relying upon that deal to close. I'm more interested in working with the client on is the problem big enough? Is it worth solving? Is there an urgency, as you said? Is the timing right now? Do you have the confidence to make this decision, All that kind of stuff?

23:32
And if they don't it's like okay, so I'm going to come back again and I'm going to talk to you in two or three months' time, but now's not the right time.

23:40 - Harry (Guest)
That's okay, as long as exactly that part what you've just described happens early in the sales process, exactly.

23:47 - Mike (Host)
Very early, like really really early, almost like during qualification, I'd say, harry. Because when we say discovery, I think what we're talking about is basically is there a willing buyer and a willing seller that can solve a problem that delivers an impact? If you can't, as you say, I mean having that conversation at the back end of a nine-month sales cycle is a very bad time to have it. So confidence is interesting. Do you want to just talk a little bit, just to touch on for a second, about how do you improve the confidence of salespeople?

24:19 - Harry (Guest)
How does that work really? When you talk about, you know these elements that I've just mentioned. You know key agreements and cost of an action, and they all you know, have an element of tension in it because they're all like pushing back a little bit and asking for something and so forth. So really, what people need, in my opinion, is courage to go there right, courage to leave that comfort zone, courage to engage differently. Now, if courage is what we need or what is required to do this really well, the definition of courage in my book of references is really you need the competence of the skills and the confidence to execute these skills well. Know that I not just know it, but I know I can do it, I've practiced it, I've gained good feedback and I'm really good executing that. The competence of the skills and the confidence to know I can do this well gives me the courage to do what I need to be doing, and I'm a great believer in that.

25:26
And in terms of you know, training people, you know, one of the reasons why I formed this company a number of years ago now is I really saw, on the sort of sales training market, you know, a lot of things going wrong. Buying was changing, you know at the time, and buying behavior is different and so forth. And all these sales training companies still had a trainer turning up telling people what they have to do Exactly. I thought that was completely outdated. So what, I believe it's one thing to get the stuff intellectually in your head, which is easy to do right, read a book about negotiation skills, watch a video on it.

26:10 - Mike (Host)
That's easy, I can get it intellectually.

26:12 - Harry (Guest)
That doesn't mean you can behaviorally do it and execute it when there is tension. So really, the consumption of knowledge is the competence part. The confidence part comes from practicing it, being coached to applying it and constantly being held accountable to it, and that gives me then the courage to execute it well.

26:35 - Mike (Host)
I mean years and years and years ago. I remember someone saying to me you know, a way that you transfer skills to someone is they watch you and then you do it together and then the highly competent person watches them. Because you have to practice it, you have to do it, you have to see it, you have to understand it, then you have to try it, then you have to get feedback and then you have to master it. But it's difficult, especially if you've not got, I mean, I worry, in a COVID, or rather in a remote first environment. Where do salespeople get that mentoring? It's really hard, it's very difficult.

27:11 - Harry (Guest)
It is challenging and the situation now with AI and everybody thinks everybody is replaceable and so forth, I think slowly people are finding out that AI can't fix everything that's wrong in your sales approach, can't fix everything that's wrong in your sales approach, and I think people are starting to come back to think that, yes, ai will enhance things a great deal, but the human element, the human aspect of things, the driving that conversations that's based on outcome, that having this cost of inaction conversation, that sort of engagement piece, that is more and more important and I think, in a leaked level of that, it's something that salespeople really need to strive for. Confidence and competence and courage is really part of that.

27:58 - Mike (Host)
So, harry, it's been fascinating. I knew it would be. Give me now let's assume that you someone listening is a head of growth in a new business. It's a services business and they've got maybe a 5 million net new revenue target in the year and they've been asked to take over an organization, a commercial organization, that maybe has been struggling, hasn't hit the conversion rates, so they're fresh into the job but they've done that job before. What are the kind of first three things you do in the first 90 days? Do you think that would start to make a difference?

28:30 - Harry (Guest)
Obviously, hiring. You know, having the right people in place is one thing. I assume that that's the case with this scenario right now. I would really hone people in on the first two or three steps of the win rates process that I said. Let's qualify out what are we providing, what problem does it solve and who is our ideal customer profile. Let's focus on winnable deals. You know there is a huge pot out there. You don't have to be a small fish in a big pond. I'd rather be a big fish in a small pond. I would, yes, right. And so the idea of qualifying out what can we win? And I get people super laser focused on the process of engagement and have these tough conversations with those prospects, because I really believe when you have these tough conversations you're actually really helping them to create those outcomes that they're desired to have. So really deal qualification effectively, strategic planning for your deals, key agreements and cost of inaction conversations. I'll come back to our few steps of win rates. That's what I would do, but then I'm biased, of course.

29:44 - Mike (Host)
Harry, thanks so much. Been fantastic. Thanks's been fantastic. Thanks for joining me. Where can people find out more about you?

29:50 - Harry (Guest)
LinkedIn Harry Kendelbacher, or on globalperformancegroupcom. My team is happy to engage very quickly upon everybody's request.

29:59 - Mike (Host)
Very good, harry. Thanks ever so much indeed, thank you.

30:02 - Harry (Guest)
Pleasure to be here.

30:03 - Mike (Host)
Thanks, mike. Thanks for listening to Higgle the B2B Sales Club podcast series with your host, mike Lander. Please subscribe so that you'll catch all the next episodes.