The Art of Gravitas and Authentic Conversation with Catherine Allison

Mike (00:40.761)
Catherine, thanks ever so much for joining me on Hagle the B2B Sales Club podcast.

Catherine Allison (00:56.002)
Brilliant, it's fab to be here. Thank you for having me, Mike.

Mike (00:59.133)
Pleasure. Now, we've not known each other that long, have we?

Catherine Allison (01:02.886)
Not that long, it must be five months or so.

Mike (01:06.865)
Yeah, exactly. I've had some guests that go back 15, 20 years and some that I've only just met. So yeah, about five months or so. And we've had a few glasses of wine together, which is always a good thing. Exactly. I'll join you with that, that's for sure. So Catherine, for people that sat there thinking, who are these two people in the chat? Who are you? What do you do? And something unusual about yourself.

Catherine Allison (01:17.09)
We certainly have, always good fun, always insightful. I do like to douse a wine, that is fair to say.

Catherine Allison (01:35.802)
Okay, so hello, I'm Catherine Allison. I am the founder of a training consultancy called Master the Art. And what I do is I help people communicate with more confidence and really ignite their influence. So essentially it's pitching, presentation and communication skills for marketing agencies, agencies from any discipline and creative minded businesses. So I really help people find their voice and build their gravitas, which I know is something we're gonna talk about.

Mike (02:05.298)
It is.

Catherine Allison (02:05.578)
a lot today. My background just very quickly is in creative agencies. So I spent, oh goodness, well over 20 years working within agencies, started off in client services roles, moved into business development. My last in-house or in-agency, I suppose, role was as head of marketing, but I'm also a professional actor.

Mike (02:28.254)
Ah.

Catherine Allison (02:29.518)
What I do is draw from my experiences in the agency world, draw from my experiences in the acting world, and I give people tips and techniques to boost their confidence when they're communicating in the workplace.

Mike (02:41.961)
Brilliant, and something unusual about yourself.

Catherine Allison (02:44.838)
Oh yes, I was trying to forget about that question. Well, I'm wondering whether to actually go down this avenue, but I'm going to go there. I'm going to be bold. So something unusual about myself is that, well, as I said, I'm an actor and I spent quite a few years freelancing at various different agencies whilst I was trying to make it as an actor. It's a tough old industry, as you know. But I was freelancing. Oh yeah, really tough.

Mike (02:46.993)
Hahaha!

Mike (02:56.465)
would. Let's go there.

Mike (03:11.921)
Indeed.

Catherine Allison (03:15.366)
I was freelancing at a particular agency and one of my friends was working for an ad agency who happened to be working on the Herbal Essences account. Now I don't know if you remember the Herbal Essences ads, they were very famous for someone enjoying washing their hair in the shower and having an orgasm, let's say. You remember the ones. I suppose...

Mike (03:35.821)
Yes, I do. Yes, yeah, absolutely.

Catherine Allison (03:43.35)
For some people, you have to be of a certain age to remember this. For those of you in your early 20s, it might not be something you're familiar with. But these ads became quite famous. And my friend was working, well, was at the creative concept stage of pitching this idea to Herbal Essences. And it was the one where they had three beautiful models in a rainforest, showering and under a waterfall. I don't know if you remember that.

Mike (03:45.277)
Hahaha!

Mike (04:07.613)
Yeah, I remember. Yeah, I do remember. Yeah, yeah.

Catherine Allison (04:11.302)
Anyway, the long and short of it is that my friend said, Catherine, we need someone who is an actor just to come in and help us with this concept. We just need someone to do the orgasm bit. Would you be willing to do that? It's just so we can sell it into the client. So I was like, yeah, I'll do that. So we did a read. Anyway, they got the concept through, roll on a few more months, and it turns out the models, the beautiful models weren't quite up to scratch with their...

orgasms. So I got rolled in again for the actual ad and it was, I think, still to this date, the most entertaining voiceover job I have ever done. And some of the notes were, yeah, that was lovely, lovely Katherine, if you could just this time come, just come to more of a climax, that would be good. So I'm actually blushing talking about it, Mike. So when you see that ad.

It popped up again recently as well. It was something like the 10 or 15 year anniversary of Herbal Essences being out there in market. And suddenly I was in the cinema and there I am going, oh, there's my voice. Great orgasming in front of lots of people. So yes, a slightly embarrassing thing that I'm sharing with you. There we are. What a way to start a podcast.

Mike (05:12.661)
Brilliant.

Mike (05:18.421)
Brilliant.

Mike (05:28.917)
Brilliant. I was gonna say, how do you practice for the role? But I don't think I will. I don't think we should go there.

Catherine Allison (05:36.646)
I don't think we'll go there, Mike. I definitely don't think we should. Let's just let that one go. Yeah. Move on to gravitas. Yeah.

Mike (05:44.309)
that one go let's just move on to the business questions to Gravitas. Exactly, what a good idea.

Catherine Allison (05:53.927)
Oh dear.

Mike (05:54.041)
So what we said we talk about today is so thanks for coming on Katherine and also having a laugh as well It's always a much better more fun way of having a podcast and there were three questions So we said we're going to talk about basically what is gravitas? Why is it important and how do you get it? So just like kind of start off with what is gravitas?

Catherine Allison (06:15.279)
It's a very good question, isn't it? What is gravitas? So for me, gravitas is the thing that it factor that difference that makes all the difference when it comes to communication. So that's when I talk about communication, I mean, whether it's to one person in a meeting room, to several people in a in a more expansive boardroom, or whether it's 200s, 1000s on a stage. But gravitas is the thing.

Mike (06:16.858)
It is.

Catherine Allison (06:41.43)
that makes all the difference because ultimately it's gravitas that allows you to know and trust your mind and to be able to speak it so powerfully that people notice your ideas, they sit up and listen when you speak and they act on what you say. Which sounds pretty good doesn't it? Sounds like something we all want to have. So it's a way of being able to express your ideas with real clarity and with real authority.

Mike (06:54.873)
Uhhh...

Mike (06:59.901)
That sounds amazing. Yeah, that does sound amazing. Exactly.

Catherine Allison (07:10.73)
This word gravitas is a word that is banded about a lot without, I think, people having a real understanding of what it is exactly. And I don't know about you, but I certainly was told when I was just starting out in agency life, Katherine, you need to have more gravitas. And I think, okay, great, great. Well, what does that mean? So, and actually, exactly, what does it mean?

Mike (07:16.658)
Yes.

Mike (07:22.109)
Definitely.

Mike (07:33.909)
What does that mean? Do I read a book or do I practice something or what do you do?

Catherine Allison (07:40.118)
do I have to be really professional, important, serious? And actually, if you go to the dictionaries and look at the definitions of grattas, so the Oxford dictionary definition is, now let me get this right, it is dignity and solemnity of manner, which, well, it's sort of wow, it sounds quite dull, doesn't it? I think, extremely dull. The...

Mike (07:43.181)
Mm.

Mike (07:56.873)
Wow.

Mike (08:02.733)
extremely really like i was thinking it would be something really interesting but no that's the furthest thing exactly no definitely not

Catherine Allison (08:07.502)
Nope. Really dull. Are we going to come on to this? We'll come on to it. It doesn't feel like it's for you or me, certainly. In my mind, that definition conjures up images of greyhead men in grey suits pontificating from some kind of platform with huge dollops of self-importance droning on and on and on and I am so much more important than you. Yeah, droning on, exactly. We've all been there and listened to people like that. Dull.

Mike (08:23.125)
correct.

Exactly. Droning on. Exactly. We've all been there. It's dull as dish water. Exactly.

Catherine Allison (08:36.182)
So the Oxford Dictionary definition, I'm like, well, eh, that sounds really boring. The Cambridge Dictionary defines it as, I think it's dignity, seriousness, and importance of manner, causing feelings of respect and trust in others. And those words are interesting. Exactly, because of course, as salespeople, people need to trust us to buy from us. And we want our colleagues, we want our peers, our board, our clients.

Mike (08:40.595)
Yep.

Mike (08:52.145)
Now the Trista I'm buying too, yeah, definitely. Yeah, correct. Exactly.

Catherine Allison (09:05.302)
We need them to respect us and trust us because then they're gonna want to work with us. So that's a slightly better definition, but dignity, seriousness, importance of manner, it still sounds really spectacularly dull. So I think if you will indulge me, I think at this point, it's helpful to have a bit of a history lesson and to go back to where this word gravitas actually comes from, because I think that helps explain.

Mike (09:11.397)
It is? Yeah, I'd agree.

Mike (09:20.118)
It does, yes.

Mike (09:27.357)
Yes, okay.

Catherine Allison (09:33.414)
why there may be some misconceptions about the word and this idea and what it really is. So actually gravitas is a roman word. Excellent! How's your Latin?

Mike (09:42.582)
Brilliant. Always up for a history lesson. Definitely. Didn't do it at school. My school was the school of hard knocks, that's for sure. My school was about escaping.

Catherine Allison (09:51.806)
Well, I have to be honest, I mean, I did do a bit of Latin and I didn't do very well in it. So let's just leave that. But gravitas is, of course, a Roman word. And it's as we know, it's been translated in various different ways. So weightiness, influence, presence, seriousness, importance of manner, all the things that we talked about already. But in actual fact, gravitas in ancient Rome.

Mike (09:59.771)
Exactly.

Mike (10:03.539)
Right.

Catherine Allison (10:19.55)
was one of the virtues of being a good Roman citizen. But what's important is it wasn't just about this seriousness as an importance of manner. It was actually also about kindness, about hard work, about self-worth, and perhaps most importantly, and most interestingly, I think, a sense of humor. So taking yourself lightly. And you've already said at the beginning of our...

Mike (10:23.431)
Really?

Mike (10:36.307)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (10:42.372)
Uh.

Mike (10:45.874)
Yeah.

Catherine Allison (10:46.446)
chat today, it's like, oh, it's much better when we're having a conversation, when it's fun, when it's light, all of those things. So it's really important that we think about the fact that actually, there has to be this balance with seriousness and weightiness and lightness, warmth and wit and humor, I suppose. And that's the thing that mattered in the Roman world, in ancient Rome. Can't speak.

Mike (11:13.201)
I never knew that. Okay.

Catherine Allison (11:16.202)
Actually really fascinating, isn't it? There you go. So for thousands of years, there was this whole, I suppose, rhetorical tradition of training people to be able to speak powerfully. So training the voice and body. And this went on for centuries and centuries and centuries. It was handed down from Aristotle and Cicero and then through on via Francis Bacon, not the painter. He was an English philosopher in the early 17th century.

Again, not something that I knew until I was delving a bit deeper into gravitas. And it continued to evolve. And then Isaac Newton popped up. And Isaac Newton in 1687, it is, don't worry, it's going to be over soon. It's going to be over soon. I promise. In 1687, he published his book. And actually I'm going to have to look at my notes right now, because I'm not an expert in Newton, he published his book.

Mike (11:46.357)
Mmm.

Mike (11:55.209)
This is a proper history lesson. This is brilliant. Ha ha ha.

Mike (12:07.721)
You're not a historian.

Catherine Allison (12:09.794)
the mathematical principles of natural philosophy, which of course was where he coined the term gravity. And gravity is that universal force. And somewhere from that moment is when actually people started to think about gravitas as only being, because he named it gravity after the word gravitas, as only being this weightiness and seriousness. But in actual fact, if you dig a bit deeper,

Mike (12:18.801)
Uhhhhhh

Mike (12:30.443)
Yeah.

Mike (12:35.368)
Yeah.

Catherine Allison (12:38.482)
Newton actually talks about gravity having opposing forces. And actually it's as much up as it is down. And the reason I've gone into that history lesson is because actually gravitas is the grounding force that gives you influence. It gives you authority, but it also has to have that opposing force upwards that gives you that warmth, wit, lightness. Now, if you're too,

Mike (13:02.853)
I've never heard it described like this in my entire life. This is brilliant. Well done, very good.

Catherine Allison (13:08.802)
great. So I've got a bit over excited about that. But you're too down, you become definitely dull, dry, boring. But on the flip side, if you're too up, you become insubstantial, you become light as air and people won't listen when you speak. So it's about those opposing forces and it's about understanding that the weight of your seriousness has to be equally balanced with that lightness, that warmth, that wit, that passion.

Mike (13:21.203)
Yep.

Mike (13:24.657)
Yes.

Mike (13:32.996)
Hmm?

Catherine Allison (13:38.974)
And that's what's missing, I think, a lot of the time. And interestingly, I saw someone, and I wish I could remember who it was, and I was on the move at the time, but I saw someone post on LinkedIn recently, and it was things I've learned over my 25 years being a leader, something like that. And she wrote, Gravitas is bullshit, fact. And I sat there and I thought, wow, okay, hmm. I do a lot of work on Gravitas, and she's just coming out and saying it's bullshit.

Mike (13:53.523)
Right.

Mike (13:57.233)
Right.

Catherine Allison (14:07.734)
But then she wrote, authenticity is key. And actually authenticity is a part of gravitas. You've got to trust that who you are is enough. So in a way I disagreed with her, but I agreed with her all at the same time. So.

Mike (14:16.456)
Right.

Catherine Allison (14:28.13)
thing that makes all the difference, I think. And I, it's really important to say at this point that gravitas isn't just for the stuffy old men in gray suits or people that have been working for decades and have bucket loads of experience behind them. Gravitas is for everybody. It can be learned. I think there's a, um, oh golly, let me get this right. It's so important. It absolutely can be learned. It's a trait. It's software. It's not hardware.

Mike (14:49.557)
So that's a really important point, it can be learned.

Catherine Allison (14:58.118)
And it reminds me of Adele Carnegie quotes, which is, there are no born speakers, they're trained. So you can train yourself to find and build your gravitas. And to get that balance right between, take me seriously and natural warmth. And that's really what you're aiming for. How does that sound? Does that sound...

Mike (15:04.58)
Uh huh.

Mike (15:09.032)
Yep.

Mike (15:21.201)
I know that makes a lot of sense. So what I'm looking at, what I'm thinking back now is, so I was ex KPMG, I was a business consultant. And if you looked at partners, one of the distinguishing factor of most partners, not all but most, was that they had this thing called Gravitas. And we always, as consultants were saying, we know it when we see it, but it's really hard to define it. And what you just did was basically define it.

Catherine Allison (15:28.27)
Mm.

Mike (15:51.217)
And I've got one guy in particular in my mind, I won't name his name, it's not a bad story at all. It's a really good story. But he had the ability to remain grounded and yet also have an air about him which was very welcoming, very warm, very engaging. But he had, he wanted to make you listen to him. There was something about the pace in his voice and the tone of his voice and the thoughtfulness of the pace.

Catherine Allison (16:13.643)
Yeah.

Mike (16:21.529)
and the things he said, obviously, but actually it was quite a lot about the way and the tone and the manner in which it was said. And it made you want to listen.

Catherine Allison (16:29.914)
Yeah. So there are certain traits, there are certain physical traits, there are certain vocal traits, there are certain behaviors that actually come together to give someone both presence and gravitas. And it's, it's also important, I think, to highlight that gravitas is subtle. So it's not do as I say, authority, which I think is what sometimes people think they have to do.

Mike (16:50.727)
Yes.

Catherine Allison (16:59.138)
sort of be the big I am, shouting and do what I say. It's much subtler than that. And it's unique to each person as well.

Mike (17:11.401)
Do you have any examples in the acting world of, I mean, do all actors naturally have gravitas or is it different?

Catherine Allison (17:20.35)
No, I would say, and actually I'd be wary of using actors because the key thing with gravitas, as an example, sorry, I wasn't finishing my sentence there. The thing with gravitas, it's about being yourself. So it's about trusting that who you are is enough. And actually I'll explain a bit more about that in a moment. Whereas as an actor, you're performing. You're stepping into the shoes of someone else and you're playing a role.

Mike (17:32.965)
Right, okay.

Mike (17:39.653)
Yeah, you're performing. You're playing a role. Yeah.

Catherine Allison (17:44.754)
And actually that is not what Gravitas is about. And that was a lesson that I learned actually when I was first pitching as a lowly account manager. And I think we were pitching on them Abbey National shows how long ago it was. And I wrote out this long, long script. And I thought, it's fine. I'm an actor. I can make it sound natural. But it didn't sound natural at all. I sounded like I was reading a script and I didn't let who I am.

Mike (17:56.869)
Right. Yeah.

Mike (18:04.425)
Hahaha

Catherine Allison (18:13.002)
chime through. I didn't let my personality come through. It sounded so scripted and rehearsed, we didn't win the pitch and that was quite a big lesson.

Mike (18:15.485)
Yep.

Mike (18:21.577)
So that's why I never, I never ever script these podcasts ever. And people say to me, oh, you know, so how does it work? And do you want me to write out a script? And lots of deep, I'm like, no. What you need to do is we need to think about three biggish questions and then we'll delve into them in a conversation. And the art, hopefully of me as a host is to encourage you to speak about those three topics.

in a meaningful and deep way that triggers thoughts in me that develops a conversation. Because having a script is a disaster.

Catherine Allison (18:56.579)
And it's always a disaster, but you do have to get your thinking clear. So that doesn't mean that you just rock up and muddle through something. You still have to have thought about, okay.

Mike (19:03.529)
Correct.

Mike (19:08.634)
Exactly.

Catherine Allison (19:11.398)
What would my answers be to these questions? How have I got my thinking absolutely crystal clear in terms of those responses? And you might have written down one or two keywords that you can talk around, but as soon as you've got a script, it sounds automated, regurgitated, mechanical, all of those things.

Mike (19:30.377)
So did you see, I can't remember, Catherine, were you at the agency conference that me and David Meikle spoke at?

Catherine Allison (19:38.382)
I wasn't at that, but I have heard about it and I have heard that you did a great job on that platform. Yeah.

Mike (19:40.041)
Ah, ah, thank you. But I was reflecting on, I actually kind of wrote out kind of scripts for each of the slides. And I knew, because I've presented an awful lot in the past, obviously, I knew what would happen was the script would be irrelevant. And in fact, the script was so irrelevant, when we got there on the day, we couldn't read the auto-queue. There was an auto-queue kind of thing, and that just wasn't gonna work, it was too small. But it didn't matter.

because we prepared really well. And we've got enough experience in our industry, in our disciplines, that wherever the questions were gonna come from the audience, we'd normally have something to say about a particular topic, because we're well prepared. The prepared mind, I think is an enormous, is it a part of gravitas? I think so, I think it is.

Catherine Allison (20:24.546)
Yeah.

Catherine Allison (20:32.806)
Absolutely, it is. And I'll explain a bit of background to that as well. I want to just build on what you said about you had a conversation and you were able to sound conversational but expert because you've done the prep work, you've got your thinking clear beforehand. And if we think about this in a sales context, we always should be aiming for conversation, for dialogue, not monologue. And yet...

Mike (20:37.121)
Mm.

Mike (20:47.338)
Correct.

Catherine Allison (20:59.25)
when we're looking to impress people, when we think we've got to win some business, we go fully into broadcast mode and dialogues. Hang on, I'm gonna have to pause here. This will be a bit, look, we're gonna have to edit out. Hang on, sorry.

Mike (21:11.571)
Yep.

Mike (21:17.461)
That's all right. No, no. So to the editors, at about 21 minutes, we need to edit out this bit and I'll start again in a second.

Catherine Allison (21:27.798)
Can you bear with me, sorry. Hang on a sec.

Mike (21:28.797)
Yeah, of course, of course, Ken. No problem at all.

Catherine Allison (22:23.778)
Sorry.

Mike (22:24.625)
All right, I'm just writing myself a note to my editor. That's fine. So that's okay.

Catherine Allison (22:29.146)
Oh, so, it's so, first world problem. I sound, I look really cross, but it's the cleaners. And the cleaners, I cannot tell you how many times we have said, it's 1.30 PM. It has to be 1.30 because we arrange our days around that. And they've come an hour early and she's like, no, I'll start in the lounge. I'm like, no.

Mike (22:41.085)
Do they want to join us?

Mike (22:50.482)
Exactly.

Catherine Allison (22:58.574)
I live in a small house, I'm recording something. Ugh, anyway, I'm so sorry. And right, so where were we?

Mike (23:04.569)
Okay, so I will just say, I'll just say in the notes, restart at about 23 minutes. Perfect. So I'll just count this back in. We were talking about, obviously, gravitas, how you see it, how you recognize it, the groundness but the lightness, and that preparedness is key, because it's the preparation.

Catherine Allison (23:34.262)
Okay.

Mike (23:34.781)
that prepares your mind. So that's where we kind of got to was why preparation is so important. So hang on, I'll count us in. Yes, do you want me to count us back in?

Catherine Allison (23:44.83)
Yeah. Yes. I'll probably go into now then the whole how you find it, if that's okay. Yes.

Mike (23:50.845)
Perfect, definitely, definitely. Okay, so three, two, one.

Mike (24:00.277)
start.

Catherine Allison (24:00.866)
So I think it's helpful if at this point, we talk about how you can actually find and build your own gravitas, how you can find your own voice. And that will also.

Mike (24:09.309)
Definitely.

So a quick recap, so we've worked out what it is, some of the characteristics of it. Just touch on before you do that, why is it so important?

Catherine Allison (24:26.778)
Well, gravitas is the thing that allows you to have the confidence to be entirely yourself and also the power to command the respect and trust of others. So it's important because it allows you to communicate with people in a way that is powerful, that is influential, that has authority, but that also still has that likeability, that approachability, that warmth. And if you think about a good leader...

Mike (24:37.191)
Right.

Catherine Allison (24:56.354)
Gravitas is essential. You need to have all of those things. So you need to have that balance right and be able to flex between serious and authority and then flex into warmth, approachability as the situation requires. So from a sales perspective, and I will just share another stat, I've got them all here, which is that 67% of pitches are lost over softer factors, over and above harder factors.

Mike (24:56.563)
Yep.

Mike (25:10.363)
it.

Mike (25:15.422)
Very good.

Mike (25:25.118)
Wow.

Catherine Allison (25:27.05)
And yet we agonize over solving the problem. We agonize over the content of a pitch and give very little thought to how we're gonna communicate that content, how we're going to communicate that solution in a way that is really gonna land and engage the people that we're pitching to. And so when you start to see that 67% of pitches are lost over those softer factors, which of course, that's what gravitas is, you start to see how it can affect the bottom line.

So that's why it matters. That's why it's important. So that is from some research that was done actually back in 2019, 2020. It was up to the light, what clients think report that is run by a gentleman called Jonathan Kirk, who is a member of, or he's on the experts register at the Design Business Association. Yes.

Mike (25:56.22)
And where's that research from?

Mike (26:18.569)
Yeah, interesting. So people should probably have a look at that. So yeah, so how do you get it? So now we know what it is and why it's important. How do you get it?

Catherine Allison (26:23.179)
Absolutely.

Catherine Allison (26:27.794)
Well, again, good question, because it feels like there's all these notions all over the place. And we've sort of touched on, oh, yeah, you've got to be able to communicate with authority and competence. You've got to do this and tone and you're pausing. You've got to get everything just right. How do you take it all? And how do you actually find a way forward? Well, the best way forward that I have found has been created by a lady called Caroline Goida, who has written a brilliant book.

Mike (26:30.794)
Hahaha.

Mike (26:44.058)
Exactly.

Mike (26:53.538)
who I know. Yep.

Catherine Allison (26:55.326)
Yes, exactly. She has written a brilliant, I remember you telling me that, brilliant book called Gravitas, which I would recommend to everyone. And she believes that something called the Gravitas equation can almost act as your own personal mentor guiding you to your Gravitas within. I wish I'd come up with this myself. I think it's bloody brilliant. I didn't. It was Caroline Goida.

Mike (27:17.553)
Hahaha.

Catherine Allison (27:21.29)
But I'll explain what the gravitas equation is. It is knowledge plus purpose plus passion, less anxiety equals gravitas. So knowledge, purpose and passion, they're the three pillars upon which gravitas rests. And the more you strengthen them, the more you strengthen and boost your gravitas. And then the only thing that gets in the way

Mike (27:33.412)
Okay.

Mike (27:49.481)
Yeah.

Catherine Allison (27:49.622)
all of those anxieties that rise up in us when we're in moments of stress, when we feel under pressure, when we're suddenly out of our comfort zone. And actually, those anxieties are quite easy to deal with once you know how. But let's go back to knowledge, purpose, passion. So knowledge is the first pillar of the gravitas equation. And you've got to have something to say. You've got to have a zone of expertise, a circle of confidence, I suppose, in which you're expert and in which you're authoritative.

Mike (28:11.974)
Exactly.

Catherine Allison (28:20.21)
But what's important here, it's not just about mind knowledge, it's not just about what you know, it's as much about your understanding of the behaviours of gravitas, your body knowledge as it is your mind knowledge and the two need to work together. So yes it's about what you know, but it's also about speaking clearly and concisely, speaking without fillers, pausing to allow your points to land, having warm, positive, open body language, listening fully, which is a key behaviour of gravitas.

It's about your knowledge of all of that, as well as your mind knowledge. So my knowledge and body knowledge, the two need to work together. So that's the first pillar. Then we have purpose and purpose. And actually for me, this is the, um, the, I would almost say it's the most valuable pillar because purpose is about your values. It's about why you do what you do.

Mike (28:57.918)
Got that?

Catherine Allison (29:17.194)
And the key thing here is that gravitas shines most when you're serving a purpose that is bigger than you. So gravitas isn't self-serving. As salespeople, we often switch into that sort about me, I'm gonna impress, I'm gonna be really flashy with this presentation, it's fine, I've got this. And no, you've gotta take the focus off yourself, place it firmly on the people that you're presenting to or talking to.

What is it that they need? How can you help them? Yes, it needs to matter to you, but it has to matter to others as well. So gravitas isn't self-serving. And that's the purpose pillar. And then we have passion. And this is that spark that sets your ideas alight. It fuels you, inspires you, inspires others. It's that, well, the passion, the excitement, the thing that gets people really listening and engaging with you. So knowledge, purpose, passion.

Mike (29:54.846)
Okay, yep.

Mike (30:01.012)
Yeah.

Catherine Allison (30:14.262)
where each of those pillars meet, that sweet spot is where you find your gravitas. But the way forward is different for everyone. So what can happen is if you come from a very analytical background, you might have studied maths, engineering, sciences, what can happen is you might be really strong on the mind knowledge part of the gravitas equation, but lack the passion and the body knowledge to communicate everything that you know in a way that engages.

Mike (30:30.226)
Yeah, yeah.

Catherine Allison (30:43.746)
that actually inspires and influences your audience. On the flip side, what can happen is if you come from a really creative background, you might walk into a room with bags of energy, bags of enthusiasm and passion. You've got a whirlwind of ideas. You're almost a distraction of ideas, but you lack the ability to communicate what you know and to communicate those ideas in a way that logical, that is structured, that makes sense.

that allow your audience to really take them on board. So the way forward is different for everyone. And the key with this is understanding what's missing for you, you as an individual, and then taking steps to improve, to hone the things you need most.

Mike (31:15.837)
Very good. Yeah.

Mike (31:31.077)
Yep. So anxiety, talk about how you manage anxiety. Otherwise it gets in the way of all of that great work.

Catherine Allison (31:42.39)
gets in the way of all that great work and it happens to all of us and I think anyone that can sit there and say oh I never get nervous or I never worry about anything or it's fine I just rock up and wing it. Really? So we have all sorts of well what do you think do you have some voices popping up in your head or a feeling in your head going you don't know what you're talking about everyone thinks you're an idiot and why did you just say that?

Mike (31:52.777)
Hmm... No.

Mike (32:01.634)
Absolutely.

Yaaaaaay.

Catherine Allison (32:09.046)
Some people do actually go, no, that doesn't happen to me at all. It might be more of a feeling, but when.

Mike (32:12.981)
And it happens to me. I mean, I can be in front of an audience. I'm on a panel in a few weeks time. So I like doing panels. I do quite a few of them. Every time I do them, every single time, I sit there looking at 20 people or 200 people. And in my head, some voice goes, you don't know what you're talking about. Someone's gonna ask you a question that will completely reveal the fact that you've got no idea at all what you're talking about.

And that always happens. And yet it never does, it derails you. So I've got, I have techniques for doing, you know, for reducing the anxiety in my head. Really simple things. But so I'd be fascinated to hear what, how would you teach people? What do you say to people to reduce the anxiety?

Catherine Allison (32:43.99)
And it can derail you completely, can't it? Yeah.

Catherine Allison (33:02.05)
Well, first of all, it's about acknowledging that actually we have those voices in our head that can derail us completely and send us down into a horrible place of self-doubt. And we actually have our inner critic and we have our inner coach. Now our inner critic, if we let it, is that negative voice that does a full-on character assassination that tells us in our head that we're idiots and that we have no authority, no grampitas. Our inner coach is the one that, if we allow it to, does calm stillness.

Mike (33:10.995)
Yep.

Mike (33:20.325)
Right. Yeah. Exactly.

Catherine Allison (33:31.774)
um, poise, celebration, positive advice. Um, but often we're so tuned into that negative voice, that inner critic that's doing that full on character assassination that we don't hear the inner coach at all, but the first step towards boosting your inner confidence. So you can have that outer confidence and that poise under pressure. That is a key part of gravitas is getting that inner critic in check. So it's making sure that inner critic.

is actually about refinement and it's about improvement. And you can use that to help you honestly step up and improve for the next time. So it's kind critiquing, I suppose. And people have different, talk about those voices in different ways or those feelings in different ways. But if you have that voice going, oh my God, you totally messed that pitch up, then actually talk back to it with the kind voice of the coach and go, okay, well.

Mike (34:11.983)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Catherine Allison (34:29.398)
That didn't go as well as I hoped. And then get that inner critic to do the improvement bit. It's like, what can I do differently next time to make sure that doesn't happen again? So you're using that negative voice in a positive way.

Mike (34:31.112)
Right.

Mike (34:37.523)
Right.

Mike (34:43.126)
How do you access the inner coach? That's a really interesting, I like frameworks. So how do you find and train that inner coach inside yourself?

Catherine Allison (34:48.632)
See ya.

Catherine Allison (34:55.618)
Well, there are a couple of techniques that I think are helpful, a good way of doing that. One of them, and again, well, this one isn't my own again. I'm actually sharing something that, oh, I can't remember her name, which is really frustrating, but she runs a company called Fuck Being Humble. Also would highly recommend, I'm in highly recommending my competitors here, but she talks about wins before dins.

Mike (35:02.307)
Excellent. I like a good technique. I do like a good technique.

Mike (35:16.529)
Right?

Mike (35:20.382)
That's fun.

Catherine Allison (35:25.99)
And so every day at the end of the day, you get out a piece of paper, you get your pen and you think, right, I'm going to write down the wins of today. It doesn't have to be anything huge. It doesn't have to be, I won a 500 grand piece of business. It's not that we're talking about, oh, I got my voice heard in the board meeting today and that was a big tick. So you're writing down and you have to write it down. You can't just think it in your head. It doesn't have the same effect. It's writing down.

Mike (35:39.593)
Yeah.

Catherine Allison (35:55.538)
right, okay, this went well today. And if you continue doing that sort of positive affirmation, I suppose, it just helps you tune into that positive voice. And then the second thing that I think would be helpful to share is about turning worry into strategy. I can't say that word strategy. I always sound like I've had far too many gins when I say strategy and authoritative. No, definitely not. That would be that would not be good.

Mike (35:59.656)
Yep.

Mike (36:08.873)
Good technique.

Mike (36:18.407)
Which you haven't at this time of the day exactly

Mike (36:24.67)
Yeah.

Catherine Allison (36:24.942)
Um, so yeah, all those what ifs that rattle around in our head, or what if I forget what I'm saying, what if everyone thinks I'm an idiot? You actually get a piece of paper on one side, you write down your worries, your what ifs on the right hand side, you write down a strategy to address that worry, that what if. And the act of writing it down again, means that when you walk into that meeting, that presentation room or press join meeting, that you've got a strategy in place to deal with. Whatever might happen. Those what ifs that.

Mike (36:28.625)
Mm.

Catherine Allison (36:54.29)
might suddenly pop up in your head. So those would be the two ways I would say of really trying to tune in and train yourself to hear that inner coach.

Mike (37:02.389)
Brilliant. So I'll add a couple more things that I've learned myself. And I did this with, I practiced this with my son many years ago and it seemed to work. So we have something called the bin of fire and the, so it's the bin of fire and the kind of bin for now and the bin for later. So you got like three bins basically. So when negative thoughts arrive,

Catherine Allison (37:11.807)
Oh yeah.

Catherine Allison (37:19.271)
Yes, this sounds good.

Mike (37:30.217)
or things that, you know, as young children, they worry about or that they might not be able to sleep with. I remember like there was a couple of things that turned up as talking to our son. And I said, put that in the bin of fire. And he went, what do you mean? I said, well, pick it up in your head and stick it in the bin of fire. And then it set fire to it, it's gone. He was like, oh. I said, try it. He tried it and it worked. And...

What I do is, if I get those horrible, the annoying negative thought in my head, I just pick it up and I stick it in the bin of fire and it's gone.

Catherine Allison (38:13.174)
Brilliant. I love that because there's a visual aspect to it as well. And I think that can really help. Can I steal that for some of my training sessions?

Mike (38:16.392)
Exactly.

Mike (38:23.661)
Anytime you like, anytime you like, definitely. Brilliant, exactly. But yeah, so that works for me. And also just the breathing, which as actors you're obviously very well perversed in. But, right.

Catherine Allison (38:26.526)
I will reference you with thanks too, Mike Lander.

Catherine Allison (38:35.542)
Absolutely. And actually everything comes down to the breath. Everything comes down to breathing. Yeah. Sorry I interrupted you Mike, though. You were mid-sentence.

Mike (38:42.981)
No, not at all. No, no, just, and I say to people when they're negotiating to reduce anxiety because anxiety is a big problem when you're negotiating because it will knock you off guard basically and you will come off worse is just to literally just take three long deep breaths calmly and then carry on. And it's amazing. There's something...

Catherine Allison (38:54.658)
Hmm

Catherine Allison (39:07.531)
It absolutely is amazing. It is the quickest way to get back to a calm centered place. Yeah.

Mike (39:09.63)
It's-

Mike (39:12.997)
Oh, is it? Yeah. And that is that fairly well proven.

Catherine Allison (39:16.99)
It is definitely proven. I say that and not being able to quote any research at all, but it's lowering your cortisol levels. So the stress hormone and that feeling that rises up in you. And just by breathing, you're lowering that cortisol level and it makes you feel much calmer. And it also allows you to listen, which again is a key behavior of gravitas. It's only by listening, really listening fully that you get to...

Mike (39:21.157)
No, no, no.

Mike (39:25.161)
Right.

Mike (39:34.288)
Uh-huh.

Catherine Allison (39:46.046)
hear those juicy insights, those real nuggets actually, that you can then use further down the line. And I know that listening, of course, is a key negotiation skill, isn't it?

Mike (39:49.081)
Exactly.

Mike (39:55.653)
Yeah, it is correct. Should be like two thirds of what you're doing is listening rather than talking precisely. Catherine, this has been amazing. Been really, really fascinating. What would you leave people with who are listening, who are saying, okay, I've got the framework, I think, and I understood why it's important. Human beings find it very difficult to process 10 things that they've got to do. What's the one thing that you'd say? How would you start?

on a journey to improving gravitas.

Catherine Allison (40:30.282)
Okay, the first thing is remembering the gravitas equation. As I said, I think it's bloody brilliant. So understand what you're missing from that gravitas equation. If it's simply about minimizing those anxieties that are stopping you from expressing yourself fully, then work on that. If you know that you need to tap more into the passion pillar of the gravitas equation so you can get that warmth, that compassion,

Mike (40:57.191)
Yeah.

Catherine Allison (40:58.598)
engagement, then focus on that and then take the steps to improve that element. And of course, we could sit here for hours talking about the steps to boost your passion, steps to boost your knowledge. We've scratched the surface, of course, but really understanding, being self-aware, understanding where you need to improve, which pillar you need to strengthen is number one, the first step.

And then really it's about going away and thinking about your voice and your body. And making sure that when you speak, your inner world and your outer world match. Part of that is about minimizing anxieties, but a lot of it is trusting that who you are is enough. Because actually if you can find your gravitas and if you can express it in a way that resonates with others, then your success comes from who you are.

Mike (41:44.116)
Right.

Catherine Allison (41:51.166)
And that is so important to take away. Be yourself. So I digress a bit. Number one, the gravitas equation. Know what you've got to strengthen. Number two, think about your voice and body, but work on your inner confidence so you can have that outer confidence and make sure the two match. And I would say number three is have fun with it all. Enjoy it. Try things out in a safe space in...

in a low stress situation and notice what happens. So it may simply be, and what we haven't done today, what we haven't had time to do is really dig a bit deeper into what it is about your voice, what it is, what you do with your body to boost your gravitas. If we had another hour or so, then we could do that. But...

Mike (42:36.774)
But maybe Catherine, it would be great to have you back to talk about specifically voice because a lot of people that are a lot of agency leaders that are presenting, a lot of salespeople that are talking to clients. I've never had any voice training. I had one session with Caroline many years ago, which is brilliant. But it's so rare that we work on our voice. So it'd be great to have you back just to talk about aspects of how to work on voice.

Catherine Allison (42:42.812)
Yeah.

Catherine Allison (42:54.887)
Mm.

Catherine Allison (43:00.331)
I'd love to.

Brilliant. And I think it's important that it's realistic as well. So what I wouldn't do is go into a whole, oh, this is what we do as actors. Because the reality is that as agency leaders, new business people, salespeople, we're not going to be doing huge, big vocal warmups before we go into a page. So I think, yeah, as you referenced, breathing techniques and realistic things that you can do within the world that you're working in, I'd love to do that. Yeah.

Mike (43:20.697)
No. Correct. We're not.

Mike (43:31.089)
Brilliant. Okay, I will invite you back. We'll definitely do that. Catherine, when people want to find out more about how to develop their gravitas, then where do they find you?

Catherine Allison (43:40.318)
So they find me on the internet. So if you go to mastertheart.co.uk, that's my website and there's details on there of all of my services, everything that I offer. My email is on there too, so drop me a line. And also on LinkedIn, Katherine Allison, A-L-L-I-S-O-N. Always happy to connect with people and I'm always happy to have a chat. So even if it's someone just going, oh, I've got a big pitch tomorrow, help. Very happy to help.

and I'd love to hear from anyone and everyone. There we go.

Mike (44:13.653)
Brilliant. Catherine, thank you. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks ever so much.

Catherine Allison (44:17.618)
Mike, thank you. It's been brilliant to be here. Thanks a lot.

Mike (44:21.277)
So let me just stop the recording and just check.