The Competitive Edge in B2B Sales Through Relationship Building with Jonathan McCallum

Mike (01:47.119)
Jonathan, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B sales for the podcast today.

Jonathan McCallum (02:12.691)
Oh, you're very welcome. You're very welcome.

Mike (02:14.647)
So it's great to talk to you again, Jonathan. I know we've had several conversations in the past and email exchanges. So for the audience, just explain kind of who you are, what you do and anything unusual about yourself.

Jonathan McCallum (02:25.974)
Yeah, I'm the Managing Director of George P. Johnson in the UK, have an AMIA role as well. George P. Johnson, one of the leading event and experiential marketing agencies, founded out of the US, still privately owned. We work across all regions in the world. Really founded out of the auto industry in Detroit and then also West Coast.

Tech, predominantly specializing in large scale, kind of conferences, exhibitions, proprietary owned events. So I guess our flagship event that people might have heard of is Dreamforce in San Francisco, which we run for Salesforce with like over a hundred thousand people. So to give you a sense of when I say scale, I mean scale.

Mike (03:19.512)
Oh, right. Wow.

OK, real scale, yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (03:27.41)
And well, so you go back to the unusual question. I mean, I don't think it's unusual, but you know, it's other people's context. I probably have an unhealthy passion for sport in that I can't go past sport, whether it be TV, live without having an interest, which certainly infuriates my wife in terms of like what I will watch. So

Mike (03:30.761)
Yes.

Mike (03:46.007)
Ha ha ha.

Mike (03:54.731)
So is this any kind of sport, anything at all virtually?

Jonathan McCallum (03:57.746)
I mean, I certainly have a hierarchy of the sort of standard things like football and passionately into sort of cycling myself, but any sport that's live, I can kind of lean into and watch and spend an ordinary amount of hours just deciding what the outcome will be and understanding like a...

like the mechanics of the sport and what skill it takes to kind of be the best. I'm just, uh, I like it from a, uh, I guess, uh, like an individual, uh, like skill level perspective, what's required from like a psychology of how you win in that sport, what's, what's the skill that's required, but also just kind of like, I just interested in sporting outcomes. So whether it be like snooker, bowls, darts, I mean, the Olympics is just,

is probably like a really dangerous time of the things that you can kind of get interesting that ordinarily you'd never have heard of.

Mike (05:01.179)
Exactly. Do you know where it comes from? Why?

Jonathan McCallum (05:06.706)
No, not really. I think it's just a bit of kind of like a competitive spirit, probably growing up in a family that like sport and like competition, that everything that we did, even whether it was Christmas Day ended up involving some games that my dad had invented. Whether it be like flap the fish, but you know, that's probably another podcast sitting on the couch being analyzed.

Mike (05:13.227)
Right.

Mike (05:21.911)
Brilliant.

Mike (05:33.079)
Genius, it sounds like your Christmases were fantastic. A dad that invents games. Wow, excellent. Ha ha ha.

Jonathan McCallum (05:36.57)
Yeah, they were certainly good fun. And then also, so we're going deep here, but there were like valuable prizes that he, they were always like last minute ill thought through. So you'd, you know, play a game for an hour and you ended up winning a tin of rice pudding, which resulted in some anti-climax, but then actually became funnier over the years. It's like the presence got worse and worse.

Mike (06:03.959)
Exactly. So on a completely parallel path, I've become known at Christmas in our family as a bingo caller So apparently I've got a career that I never knew I had by being a bingo caller. I'm probably I'm very good at it So every year now we have to play bingo. So yeah, every family has their unique Rituals, I think is what we'd call them probably

Jonathan McCallum (06:23.486)
Yeah, yeah. And do you know all the number calling then, do you as well? Yeah.

Mike (06:27.131)
I'm getting better. I'm getting much better. I've got a script that I read out, but I'm getting much more better or much better at ad hoc comments around the numbers. But yeah, I love it. I really enjoy it. But yeah, it's a simple pleasures in life often. So before our audience starts to think we're talking about sport and bingo, let's talk about agency dynamics and sales. So first question. So just talk about the RFP pitch process.

and kind of reasons, themes, why you kind of win and lose and what you've learned over the past few years about how do you improve your commercial success.

Jonathan McCallum (07:08.478)
One of the things that we've started to focus on more intently now is a reverse on where it used to be, and not just my agency, but my agency experience. There's always a lot of time invested on why you didn't win. I know we've touched on this before, but the more I reflect on it, the more that I realize this time and energy is spent internally.

Mike (07:27.764)
Yes.

Jonathan McCallum (07:37.142)
understanding like the pitfalls that might have happened during the pitch process where you think you might not have presented yourself in the right way. Generally, even if it has positive intent, it always ends up on the negative side, but never actually addresses the real reasons because you tend to look at internal factors. But what I find is when you spend more time interrogating why you win, you focus a lot more on external factors.

Mike (08:07.104)
Ah!

Jonathan McCallum (08:09.11)
Because then you start to align as well. What was it the client selected in us? Whereas losing tends to be, oh, you know, we didn't like kind of crack the idea. Maybe the team wasn't right or that, you know, we didn't get the right order right in the pitch. Didn't seem or like there's something wrong with our costings, etc. But when you win, you know, you kind of,

Mike (08:15.626)
Yeah.

We didn't prepare properly. Exactly, yeah.

Mike (08:27.829)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (08:34.374)
like all of those things are assumed to be right. So you don't focus on them. You don't think, oh, how could we have done the presentation better? Because you won. So therefore you're just kind of like the, the analytics of it tends to go into, well, what was it about the relationship? What was it about the work that we were produced? Yeah. What was it about how we pitched, uh, like the commercial proposition. So it tends to be a lot more externally focused. And since we've spent more time and energy on that.

Mike (08:37.334)
Correct. No, that's right.

Mike (08:49.247)
The Sector.

Jonathan McCallum (09:03.922)
I would say that it's increased our win percentage.

Mike (09:09.351)
Interesting.

Jonathan McCallum (09:11.638)
But also what it's done is probably reduce the number of pitches that we go for.

Mike (09:18.663)
Yes, absolutely.

Jonathan McCallum (09:20.438)
because we look more about like the conditions that are right for us to win. And therefore, whereas certainly in a, in a time where the, you know, there's like a, a bad commercial environment, whether it be like a COVID or, or recession, you feel compelled to go for more rather than for less. And you should probably be brave enough to go for less and concentrate on the ones that you can, you've got a higher proportional chance of winning.

Mike (09:47.731)
It's really important, Jonathan. All my experience is exactly the same. Working with clients on exactly this issue, the biggest thing I say to them is, qualify out 40% roughly of what you receive you shouldn't be bidding for. There's a way of responding that still allows you to engage, but you shouldn't be bidding for about 40 or percent. You gotta qualify them out. But it's counterintuitive for most commercial leaders. And it's scary, because you're about to turn down what could be a what we might have won.

Jonathan McCallum (09:51.822)
Mmm.

Mike (10:17.619)
Yeah, but you're spreading yourself too thin.

Jonathan McCallum (10:21.138)
Yeah, because, you know, certainly on the agency side is that a large part of our future sort of planning for growth is based on pipeline. And if the first stage of that pipeline is narrowing the pipeline, it sort of feels counterintuitive.

Mike (10:32.587)
Congrats.

Mike (10:39.123)
It does. But it's critical. I think if you fail, agencies that fail to qualify out and bid for everything, I mean, as you know, I'm an ex-buyer. No, as a buyer, I'm sat there. And if I've sent it out to five pre-qualified agencies and I get a response back that, yes, you've answered the questions, but this clearly isn't in your sweet spot. My instant reaction is, why did you bother?

Why don't you just tell me not that you weren't gonna bid? If you couldn't knock it out of the park, why would you waste commercial effort on it? I don't understand. You've got to be able to knock it out of the park.

Jonathan McCallum (11:17.054)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (11:20.626)
And I think it's understanding that from the very start, a pitch process is not a, it's not just a sort of formality of detail, but it's also a relationship process. And I think that gets forgotten as well. And understanding where you have those relationships and what sort of relationship you have, which might have got you on the, on the list in the first place and understanding how you got on the list is really important.

Mike (11:33.738)
Yeah.

Mike (11:46.495)
Yeah.

Mike (11:50.235)
understanding how you got on the list. Do you want to just dig into that a little bit more? Because I think that's a, yeah, it's a critical area. If you bumped into someone at a conference, you exchanged business cards and then RFP turns up. Probably not as good as if you've known them for three years and eventually the right piece of work turns up. So what's your room? How do you judge that, that spit, that relationship piece?

Jonathan McCallum (12:13.374)
Yeah, I think for us, we face a reasonably unique dynamic than compared to other agencies that I've worked at in that because of our like, specialism, there aren't many agencies around the world who can sort of potentially work at the scale that we can work at. You know, we certainly got like a strong competitive set.

Mike (12:39.632)
No, exactly.

Jonathan McCallum (12:42.978)
But it tends to mean that we're on a known list. And therefore we can get approached by being on that list rather than bumped into somebody at a conference to start, just even had an initial conversation. We can be a step back from that and just the awareness and visibility of what we do can sometimes get us on the list. And that doesn't necessarily mean that

Mike (12:51.99)
Yeah.

Mike (13:01.877)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (13:13.122)
there's the right interrogation gone into like, are we actually the right fit or are we a good fit for the numbers? And I know we've, we've talked about this previously over dinner as well in terms of, you know, the shortlist that can be created in your position on that shortlist and understanding the different makeup of it. And you know, since we have that conversation.

Mike (13:21.301)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (13:42.206)
I kind of lived and breathed it and in exactly the way and the scenario that you set out, which is very, very frustrating because we were number two out of the five or six.

Mike (13:48.905)
Right.

Mike (13:53.087)
Ha ha.

Jonathan McCallum (13:58.03)
Uh, you know, I think, you know, we can go into that in a bit more detail, but overall, I know as a business, certainly over 70% of the pitch wins that we have are because we've got some sort of relationship with a client within the organization. That's either a client that's kind of moved on or somebody that we've known for a while, or it's a relationship that we've cultivated over a period of time. Uh, so that both organizations might understand each other. Now that doesn't necessarily mean it's a

Mike (14:20.68)
Exactly.

Jonathan McCallum (14:27.214)
It's a sort of slam dunk victory, but what it does give you is a much better understanding of how you can work together and therefore your proposition to that client is better.

Mike (14:29.18)
No.

Mike (14:43.883)
So how much weighting just out of interest do you put on that when you're doing your qualification, whether it's by a spreadsheet or whether it's via a kind of a pitch committee that assesses, how much weighting do you put on that? Where did this pitch come from in terms of the strength of the relationship?

Jonathan McCallum (14:49.613)
Mm.

Jonathan McCallum (15:05.974)
I would say it's kind of like we would kind of break it down, but I would say that's certainly at least 50% because the other 50% can be made up of, you know, our belief in the opportunity and our fit for it. But the relationship part of it is the top. They are the like initial.

questions before we kind of get into the detail. It doesn't mean to say that if we don't think the relationship is that strong, we wouldn't not go for it if all the other attributes are right in terms of it. It could be like a new opportunity, but I would say that it certainly has the biggest waiting in terms of deciding whether we can win it or not. You know, those sort of two questions go together and that's the biggest sort of sense of, of waiting of whether we can win it or not.

Mike (15:34.986)
Yeah.

Mike (15:42.408)
Not sure.

Mike (15:55.144)
Exactly.

Mike (16:02.807)
Because again, if I flip the coin over and look at it from the buyer's side, if I've got five agencies that are pitching for a piece of work in my old role when I was a procurement guy, I'd know with the stakeholder who their preference is before we start the process, because you would be in one of the five and you would have a, what I would call, it's an unfair advantage in a good way. As a procurement person,

I actually want that to happen. I want the commercial lead on my side to know, yeah, we've got a relationship with Jonathan and his team. We've worked with them for the last like three, four years on small bits and pieces, and this is now a bigger project. And we know culturally how they work and we know they're a great fit. That doesn't mean that someone else couldn't win, but when the stakeholder group is reviewing all the pitches, you will have an advantage.

And I think that's absolutely critical.

Jonathan McCallum (17:06.467)
Yes, it's giving procurement the mandate to be able to help support a decision because a relationship's not enough. So you need to be able to ensure that you can provide all the detail and support for the other commercial aspects. But the conversations I've had with procurement are, you know,

Mike (17:12.747)
Correct.

Absolutely.

Mike (17:24.416)
That's right.

Jonathan McCallum (17:31.71)
And again, we don't necessarily perceive that from our perspective, because we always look at things from our perspective. That like reputations are on the line because procurement are still involved in the middle of being able to make the right commercial decisions for a business. And if they fail because relationships fail, you know, that circles back to them as well. And we don't always think about that.

Mike (17:40.232)
Yeah.

Mike (17:50.186)
Exactly.

Mike (17:54.599)
And I think, Jonathan, you know, I mean, the very idea that it just because you've got the relationship absolutely doesn't mean it's a procurement person that you're going to be the one that I appoint. Yeah, because that would be a complete breach of our governance rules. So you're right. And it's a different stakeholder group. So the relationship is key, but as is engaging with procurement. So actually, in our podcast questions, why don't we go to question three next, because it's a natural lead on

which is how do you successfully engage with procurement and where are the pitfalls? So in that pitch process, how do you successfully engage with procurement? Where are the pitfalls? What are the success factors?

Jonathan McCallum (18:37.938)
Yeah, the one thing as well is the way that procurement approach the process is all is important for me, because I think that gives you a good understanding of the cultural identity of the business, because if procurement are very remote, and it's kind of uploading to a portal, there's very little opportunity to engage in conversation. I think that kind of gives us

a sense of the challenges that you might face of converting that work. Because I think it's really important on some of our best relationships of being through really strong procurement relationships. Because in the end of the day, it's their responsibility to ensure that the right decision is being made for the business. And the relationship aspect starts with them.

Mike (19:13.267)
Absolutely.

Mike (19:33.172)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (19:37.482)
being able to understand what their intentions are, what their priorities are within the business, not just what the marketing or event team face, but what's happening with them across the business. Because that might be impacting on how they make decisions in your sector. Because it's very rare that the procurement team that we deal with work on an isolated part of the business.

Mike (20:05.565)
Exactly.

Jonathan McCallum (20:05.602)
they could be working on a whole broad range of procurement decisions, which therefore have some macro strategy to them, which could be around, you know, duration of contracts, price saving, incentive based relationships, whatever it is, but understanding those kind of tensions or objectives is really important.

Mike (20:14.005)
Yep.

Mike (20:29.387)
So something as a question to you on that theme, I've talked to obviously a lot of agencies over the time. And when you talk about campaigns they're running for new prospects, for new logos, they'll spend all their efforts campaigning to engage with the CMO, the brand director, whoever it might be in the agency, in the client, in the brand. And I said, do you have the same approach to the procurement people? Do you run campaigns to build relationships with procurement outside of the RFP process?

Most people, that's a bit of a revelation. Why would I do that? And yet it's the obvious piece of the puzzle that's missing. So do you actively, proactively engage with procurement people outside of the formal process to build a relationship with them?

Jonathan McCallum (21:17.042)
Yeah, and also, I mean, that's a really great point because I bet the broad answer would be like, no, wouldn't have even crossed people's minds. But also, when you've won the business, that's not where the relationship ends. That's where the relationship should really start to flourish and kind of make it ongoing.

Mike (21:26.475)
Correct. It doesn't cross their mind. That's right.

Mike (21:37.685)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (21:47.766)
we've been able to build a really strong relationship with a procurement team so that they were able to adapt the rules when we came to what would have been the end of the contract, which should have ordinarily gone into another procurement cycle. But they were then able to understand our business and say, actually, the fit is there. We know that what you provide is not

easily accessible more broadly in the market. So therefore we wouldn't be comparing like for like. So we're able to kind of put an extension onto the contracts because we can demonstrate to the business and within the like the corporate guidelines that were making the right and valid commercial decision. And that wouldn't have happened if we didn't have a relationship with Produrement.

Mike (22:21.288)
Yeah.

Mike (22:25.032)
Exactly.

Mike (22:37.707)
That's right.

Mike (22:41.175)
Correct. I mean, just simple things like QBRs, you know, well-structured, well-run QBRs from the agency side into the client with procurement in attendance, you know, engaging them in the SLAs that we've agreed, targets, KPIs, you know, the future strategy, budgets for next year, all that stuff, you know, it makes a massive difference. A badly run QBR from a procurement person's perspective is a killer for an agency.

because it just shows that you don't know how to run a commercial relationship review.

Jonathan McCallum (23:18.186)
Yeah, I completely agree. The other thing that I, a greater understanding and partnership procurement offers you the opportunity to ensure that you're always being measured on a comparative basis. Because one of the challenges that we face is sometimes the price comparison or approach isn't as simple as it looks like on a spreadsheet, whether that be a

Mike (23:46.26)
Absolutely.

Jonathan McCallum (23:46.67)
fee rates or how you price jobs, because there's a lot of nuance in the detail. So sometimes you're not pricing up in the same way, but on paper it looks like you are. Whereas being able to have those sort of conversations with procurement can ensure that they understand the numbers that you've put in front of them might not be the same in terms of.

Mike (24:00.619)
That's right.

Jonathan McCallum (24:14.11)
the depth of detail that somebody else has replied. So they might look less expensive, for example, but when you get into kind of like the detail, the words are the same, but what's behind the words are not the same.

Mike (24:21.675)
That's right.

Yeah. So just, I'm very conscious of your time. So let's kind of draw it towards a conclusion.

Jonathan McCallum (24:30.238)
No, no problem. I can go on for a little bit longer if that helps.

Mike (24:34.155)
Perfect, excellent. In that case, the question that we were gonna cover last was in terms of at a slightly more kind of macro level, what do you see as being the challenges with the current way that the pitch process is run? Be that a kind of less formal client brief that's competitive, more formal RFPs, repitches for work. So what do you see as being the problems with the way that's run?

What can agencies do about it? And although I haven't pre-prepared this with you as a question, it's the obvious kind of questions on the table. How is AI going to change that landscape in the next few years? So quite a big macro question, but I'd be fascinated by your thoughts.

Jonathan McCallum (25:24.374)
I'll come to the AI point last to see if I can get some intelligence to think of how I can answer that question. This is a reasonably complex area. I would say that one of the biggest sort of challenges, I don't know whether it's just sort of businesses, you know, going through a period of all being a bit more remote and therefore automated.

Mike (25:35.931)
It is a complex area.

Jonathan McCallum (25:54.014)
One of the hardest things for agencies, I think, is where people led businesses, it's a relationship led output. And as RFPs become more automated, like we mentioned before, of uploading information into portals with very little opportunity to be able to context that information through dialogue.

Mike (26:16.763)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (26:23.398)
I think that makes it more challenging for agency, but I also believe it must make it more challenging for procurement as well. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges. And we would be very reticent about going through a pitch process where that is the only form of contact, you know, where we haven't got some sort of relationship in parallel to that might have got us to that.

Mike (26:32.429)
Yep.

Mike (26:44.38)
I completely agree.

Jonathan McCallum (26:51.914)
part of the process or something that we know that within the rules and obligations, we are actually able to have a relationship with that client. That could be because it's an existing client or somebody that we've worked with previously, but any occasion where the RFP is almost anonymized is something that we would tend to try and shy away from for sure.

Mike (27:08.031)
Yeah.

Mike (27:19.931)
I completely agree and I think, no, I think most agencies should. If, really simple thing, if in the RFP it says, at no point can you talk to anyone in the stakeholder community until you've been down selected to present the final pitch, i.e. here's the RFP, you can't talk to us, best foot forward, spend 100 person hours writing it, send it in via the portal and we'll let you know. That's...

Jonathan McCallum (27:37.131)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (27:49.303)
That's not a pitch process. There's no way that an agency can read the minds of the stakeholder group through a document that's been written broadly by procurement interviewing stakeholders. There'll be a sort of things missing, all sorts of nuances missing, all sorts of priorities missing, lots of emotional aspects missing. So to me it's just like that's a real red flag if you cannot talk to anyone before you start to put...

keyboard document.

Jonathan McCallum (28:21.866)
Yeah, because it's almost, it's not a pitch process should be a win for both parties that you're creating a really constructive relationship through that commercial process. The more distance that you create, it feels as though it's actually based on a, like a

Mike (28:36.735)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (28:47.778)
you know risk versus failure rather than like a focus on a positive outcome.

Mike (28:52.519)
Yep, exactly right.

Jonathan McCallum (28:56.006)
And, you know, I can't, I can't think of any occasion where we've gone through that process where even if we've ended up, uh, like winning or being put on a roster and we've gone through that process, it's never, it's, it's never really, uh, I can't think of an example where you can actually know we've turned that around as it's worked out really well, we've built a relationship post all that process, uh, what's tended to happen is, uh, it's remained distance throughout.

Mike (29:17.256)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (29:23.25)
And then every time an opportunity comes up, you're kind of submitting a price, but it's kind of going into a void. Yeah, so like the time and energy spent has never really manifested itself positively anyway.

Mike (29:23.559)
Exactly.

Mike (29:39.143)
Exactly right. Absolutely. What do you so what's your kind of from this kind of conversation? What are your kind of two or three takeaways for your kind of fellow agency leaders about the whole pitch process? How you how do you win more in that kind of environment?

Jonathan McCallum (29:59.53)
I think it's really important to focus on the why you're there, what were the conditions that caused you to be part of that process and that conversation. I think believe in the transparency of relationships because you're not trying to circumnavigate the process, you're trying to make the process as effective as you can for both parties.

Do not underestimate the longevity of relationships with procurement. It's not an in the moment thing. Think about it before, during, and after as part of your client relationship portfolio, as you would with any sort of client group, matching off the comparative skills and personalities that fit right with the client organization, whether it's B.

creative lead with a creative lead, for example, but think about how you're going to manage that from the commercial side as well. Ultimately, everybody wants their lives to be easier and businesses want to be able to make sound commercial decisions where they're confident in the success of the outcome. And I think you can do to help bridge that. It's definitely something to focus on and the relationship aspects of it and understanding where that relationship

Mike (31:13.185)
Yes.

Jonathan McCallum (31:24.158)
started from is really critical. I think you asked me for three and I think that's only two. And the third one is understanding pricing. I know that's going into a bit more detail, but really ensure that you're understanding how they are viewing the commercial proposition from a pricing perspective.

Mike (31:30.123)
Hahaha

Jonathan McCallum (31:54.382)
And sometimes it might be that you put something forward, which you think is a bonus, like aspects, or in terms of the way that you run and manage your business with clients. But if somebody's not doing the same on the other side, but that's not transparent, therefore it can end up counting against you, even though you think you've put forward like a positive proposal. For us, that would be.

Mike (32:19.67)
Yep.

Jonathan McCallum (32:21.486)
Uh, you know, we don't mark up third party costs. So we're just pass through costs and, you know, as, as a business, we drive up profitability through, uh, our fees and the time spent working with clients rather than any sort of pass through costs. Now, if that's not clear and transparent on all sides, that can, uh, impact negatively on us in terms of like how we might be viewed, uh, on a kind of benchmarking perspective and, and.

Mike (32:49.525)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (32:50.986)
And that could be just because you've not been able to have the conversation to be able to understand and get clarity on like how they're interrogating some of the information that's put in front of them so that you can put the right information in front of them.

Mike (33:05.799)
Exactly right. Jonathan, so just before we close, I don't know, maybe we cover the AI question on a separate discussion. I might have a follow up actually with a few people around how is AI going to change the landscape of the pitch process, but any kind of like final thoughts on that?

Jonathan McCallum (33:25.166)
Uh, I think one of the, one of the main things is that, uh, it will probably fast track some of the, uh, the, the kind of backend formality. Uh, the longest discussion for me is in terms of what it can, uh, deliver in terms of creativity, for example. And it can't overcome the relationship aspect, but some of the, uh, reporting, uh,

Mike (33:37.085)
Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (33:54.67)
uh, like the, the interrogation or approach and, and helping, uh, sort of fast track some of the, uh, more, more sort of formalized, uh, approaches that will probably, uh, help and, and fast track some of some of that aspect, uh, yeah, definitely, definitely think this is sort of a bigger discussion. Certainly lots of aspects of our business that we can certainly use AI in the future, the way that it's, uh,

Mike (34:13.334)
I think so.

Jonathan McCallum (34:23.978)
developing. It's just how you commercialize that into your proposition.

Mike (34:28.923)
Exactly right. Yeah. And I think lots can be done for internal efficiency. I think there's a big question about what does that mean for clients? And what does that mean in terms of benefit for clients as well as benefit for the agency? So yeah, separate discussion, I would say on that. Jonathan, so go. Yeah.

Jonathan McCallum (34:42.858)
Yeah. And yeah, like, sorry, just one thing is just that, like, I've started to use the sort of term assisted insight because that's really the main driver of it, that you can get some information faster and in a more interrogated way.

Mike (34:52.115)
Yes.

Mike (35:00.179)
That's a great.

Mike (35:04.007)
No, it's a great summary actually, assisted insight. I use it for the same thing. It's a great starting point. So if I've got a complex thing I'm solving for a client, I'll use chat GPT to get some ideas, but it's just a starting point. And then I'll spend the time thinking more deeply using my experience and their context. So yeah, it's assisted insight. I think it's a good way of summarizing it. Jonathan, you've been an amazing guest. Thank you ever so much for being a guest.

on Higgle the B2B Sales Club podcast. Where can people find out more about you?

Jonathan McCallum (35:39.078)
You can check me out on LinkedIn. I try and use Volun's Hold to use LinkedIn more provenantly, which I'm trying. And then our website is gpj.co.uk if you want to find out more about the company.

Mike (35:57.023)
Jonathan, thanks ever so much for being a guest. Thank you much indeed.

Jonathan McCallum (36:00.537)
No, thanks as ever.

Mike (36:02.907)
So let me stop the recording. Just stay on the line.