The Secret Ingredients of Successful Brand Clarity with Ulli Appelbaum

00:00 - Ulli (Guest)
If your customer has a clear idea of what you offer and what you provide, you generate 70% more business than if the consumer doesn't know about you. It's huge, tremendous, and for a consumer to be clear about what you have to offer, you need to be clear about what you have to offer.

00:18 - Mike (Host)
My name is Mike Lander and you're listening to Higgle the B2B Sales Club podcast, where we bring you actionable insights about sales, RFPs, negotiations and difficult procurement discussions from sales leaders, brand leaders and procurement leaders. Please subscribe to get updates when new episodes are released. Uli, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast.

00:45 - Ulli (Guest)
Thanks for having me. Mike, Very excited to be on your show.

00:48 - Mike (Host)
Yeah, me too, because this is a slightly different perspective which I love to bring into this show about the kind of growth agenda agencies and also for brands. So, without further ado, who are you, what do you do and what's your favorite song, and why? What do you do and what's your?

01:04 - Ulli (Guest)
favorite song, and why? Well, thanks for the introduction question. My name is Uli Appelbaum, I'm a brand consultant and I live in Minneapolis, minnesota, and my background is really account planning and brand strategy at some of the biggest advertising agencies in the world. But for the last 15 years or so I've been doing my own consulting work with corporate clients ranging everything from small entrepreneurs, startups to global multi-billion dollar companies. So I'm a brand strategist. So I don't do any execution, but I help clients get clarity on who to target, how to position themselves, the growth paths and all these kind of things. And my favorite song recently. So my musical taste is very varied, from German hip hop from the 80s to French classical songs to South American songs. But a couple of years ago I was in Mongolia and I fell in love with the Mongolian throat singing and I've never heard of that. What is that?

01:58
The interesting thing is a smart producer in Mongolia decided to mix traditional Mongolian music with modern stereotypes and classical rock, and there's a band called Wahoo HU, which is basically a great marketing concept, but they also do great music and they've been a global sensation for the last couple of years because they really mix this Mongolian heritage with modern rock music Really really interesting. Now, it's very bizarre because Mongolian throat singing is like a very peculiar sound, but, as I said, I fell in love with the country. I fell in love with that music. So that's my go back to music when I need a little pick me up or something like that.

02:41 - Mike (Host)
Brilliant Every time. Every time I ask someone, there's always an interesting and different insight from people about their favorite song and why so? Yeah, never had that before, so I'll be looking out for Mongolian throat music.

02:54 - Ulli (Guest)
The band is called the who, so H-U and Spotify. It's all over Spotify, so yes.

03:00 - Mike (Host)
I'll listen to it next. Very good, so let's get into the questions Just before we get into the questions. I always like to do this because it's more fun. I'll listen to it next. Very good, so let's get into the questions Just before we get into the questions. I always like to do this because it's more fun, I think, just before the rehearsed questions that we talk through. Is brand strategy a craft and a science, or is it a mixture of both? Is it one or the other? Very high level. Before we start.

03:21 - Ulli (Guest)
What's your view? So I think, ultimately it. It's a craft, and any craft requires science. When you're a woodworker, you need to understand the texture, the properties of wood under certain conditions and the science.

03:34 - Mike (Host)
The tools that you use Correct.

03:36 - Ulli (Guest)
But it's a craft because it's something that you become better at the more you do it. You can use a 3D printer, but there's a difference between crafting something, let you know. You can use a 3D printer, but there's a difference between crafting something, let's say, manually, and doing a 3D print. So I think it's really a craft and also not all of it is understood. Not all of it is scientific based, even though a lot of science glows into it. So you require a bit of experience, obviously, intuition and all these kinds of things I often think about brand strategy sounds bizarre, but the more I think about it, it's like the Japanese tea ceremony.

04:09
When you look at the Japanese tea ceremony, it's some very simple steps. Right, it's making tea, pouring hot water into a cup that has tea in it. But the Japanese culture has perfected this to a level that is absolutely mind-blowingly brilliant. And strategy is not that complicated if you focus on the basics. But focusing on the basics and doing those 100% right, that is where it's easier to do something difficult and complex and with a lot of movement and exaggeration than to focus on clearly defining your target audience in a way that is actionable for your brand building activities, Clearly identifying what is unique about your offering without having a list of 35 items. So those very basic things require experience, require craftsmanship and require understanding how consumers think and form brands in their brain. So the science of branding as well. So I would say a craft Interesting.

05:05 - Mike (Host)
That's a great, great explanation. And actually when we come to it in the questions, if I forget, remind me, because one of the problems, you know, I'm an ex-procurement director, so I'm an ex-buyer One of the problems we always face is when the buying committee sits and we've had three pitches. You know the actual in-person meetings. Hopefully in person, I say to the team which is the economic buyer and maybe IT and all sorts of different stakeholders, you know who stood out and why, and that differentiation, that ability to identify why an agency that we've spoken to is the right agency for us, differentiation in its truest sense. Usp, the unique bit.

05:44
It's almost impossible these days for a services firm it's very, very, very rare that something's truly unique. But to stand out, to stand for something, to have deep insight that's what I think agencies need to get their head around is how do they stand out, how do they challenge clients thinking what is basically their brand and their purpose? So, without further ado, let's talk about the first question. So, first of all, congratulations on launching your new book. It's great news. So could you explain what you mean by the science of brand associations and why it's particularly important to brands and agencies, right?

06:20 - Ulli (Guest)
now. So, absolutely so. Coming back to the science piece, right, when you look at what a brand is from a scientific perspective, the simplest way to put it, it's the sum of all the memories you have about a specific offering, right? So it doesn't matter if it's a supplier, if it's a big, global brand is whatever you associate with it. The memories you have is what represents a brand, and these associations can be, you know, be something you've heard because of the advertising of the company, or what a neighbor said to you, something you've experienced yourself, or an emotion you develop towards this offering or this brand. So this association basically shapes your attitude and, hopefully, your brand preference, so that in the moment of purchase you think about them first. And there's data that shows that if you think about a company first, the likelihood that you're going to purchase them is significantly higher and this company is going to be more successful.

07:11
So the interesting thing about the book as well is that it's very much a curation of existing knowledge. So I was blown away by the amount of science that is available and the amount of evidence-based marketing principles, and by what I mean with that is, you know, there-based marketing principles, and by what I mean with that is, you know, there are some marketing principles that are based on large scale studies of what works and what doesn't work. So it's really curation of the science and these evidence-based principles, as opposed to my subjective opinion and my romantic, fantastic opinion on what brand associations are. It's the data and the science behind it, of course sprinkled with my own experience and some of the case studies.

07:51 - Mike (Host)
So what did you find? I think some of the best books I've read actually are a curation of well-founded models that maybe you've forgotten or haven't heard of, and then you bring it together and additional insights are developed. So what did you find? What were the big themes that came out when you did the research and wrote the book?

08:08 - Ulli (Guest)
So I come back to my Japanese tea ceremony. Right To build a strong brand association network, one you need to be clear on what are the associations you want to build right, and it cannot be 26. It needs to be a small, limited number.

08:25 - Mike (Host)
And what do you mean by an?

08:25 - Ulli (Guest)
association. In simple terms, what does that mean? So, for example, it would be let's say, I'm trying to understand. I have defined a specific consumer segment or decide to target the whole market and want to understand what is it that would drive them to purchase my services? What is the single most important criteria for them? Or maybe the top two?

08:43 - Mike (Host)
or three criteria For the attributes, that's right.

08:45 - Ulli (Guest)
And identifying those top attributes are the ones I would then claim to my brand. So I would say Uli is always these attributes Always. So this would be like sort of like step one and then sticking to those attributes right. So not veering, oh, and I also do this and I also do that. It's like no, let me stick to this is what I do. Number one. And then it's about bringing this consistently to life at every touchpoint, every as a consultant, every LinkedIn post, every piece of collateral I produce, every email I send out. I need to reinforce this specific. So it's very simple. It's pick this consumer or customer purchase driving attribute and connect it to yourself through repetition.

09:23
The second point is the one you alluded to as well is also differentiation. Right, it's easy for me to claim oh, I'm going to help your brand grow, you know, and make a lot of money. A lot of consultants will do that as well. So the question is how do I differentiate myself? And the point here is well, in my case, I have already my German accent. That helps me differentiate. In the world of account planning and advertising, the popular accent is the British accent. So if you have a German one, you just stand out, naturally, but what's interesting too is then a variety of factors right Is the methodologies you use, the referrals you have, the clients you have worked with, the work you have done for your clients, etc. Etc. And these variables will change based on your clients, but ultimately they will try to look why would I hire this guy? Maybe a 20% more than this guy, and I'm not sure exactly what the difference is between the way they work or the experience they have.

10:15 - Mike (Host)
And people look for social proof. So case studies, 100% so they're looking for. Do people like me buy Uli and do I relate to those people and the results they get? And would I like?

10:27 - Ulli (Guest)
some of that as well. That is exactly right. And the third point, which is often underestimated, is does the brand create an emotional response? So in this case it would be do I like Uli or does he really annoy me with his accent and his way of speaking and it just drives me nuts? I don't want to work with this dude. Or he seems like a nice guy, he seems very knowledgeable, he has a great sense of humor. This is the type of person I want to work with.

10:51
So there's an emotional reaction that happens and that I think that, as a service provider, you need to let out as well. You need to let this personality come out. You know, we can all be buttoned up in a suit and a tie and be very rational, and you know, let me walk you through the process and it's going to be boring, but it's going to be very professional. Or you let your personality out and then it's a chemistry game, right? Some people love my style and my way of thinking no-transcript and do. I want to work with him, and those are the two sort of like drivers. But that's something you can manage with the associations you create with potential customers.

11:57 - Mike (Host)
So feeding those back? Just in summary, was that clarity, consistency and emotion? Basically yes. So if you dig into that, what did the research tell you when you wrote the book about? Did all the signs point in the same direction.

12:11 - Ulli (Guest)
Yes, and there's some slight difference between it's also looked at packaged good brands. There's some slight difference between large brands and small startups, but consistently, I would say 80% of the principles are very consistent. So clarity, for example. There's research that shows that clarity explains 70% of future brand purchases, and what I mean with that is if your customer or your consumers, has a clear idea of what you offer and what you provide, you are 70% more likely. Basically, you generate 70% more business than if the consumer doesn't know about you.

12:45 - Mike (Host)
That's huge.

12:46 - Ulli (Guest)
It's huge, it's tremendous. And for a consumer to be clear about what you have to offer, you need to be clear about what you have to offer. You know what I mean. You cannot just say, consumer, figure it out and then come back to me and let me know what exactly you see in me. No, you need to be very clear on what you're building. So all the science shows that. The second part is the point you made as well, which is distinctiveness. I always laugh and I worked in advertising for a long time right and every agency, whether it's advertising, design or any digital all think they differentiate themselves through the process they provide. Right, but then you look at the process of three different agencies and they're exactly the same.

13:24 - Mike (Host)
They're all the same, they're 100%, but they've got different labels. That's exactly right. They might have like eight chevrons, some might have five chevrons.

13:31 - Ulli (Guest)
That's exactly right.

13:32
But broadly it's the same 100%, and, and a client is not stupid either, right? So one part that helps you is distinctiveness is how is Mike different, literally stands out to your point from? In that case, Uli, it's the personality it's. You know, whatever it is, and those are often intangible elements as well. He has a giant giraffe in his conference room. You know, the weird thing is it doesn't have necessarily to do with your business, but it needs to help you stand out. You know Mike is always wearing a Tyrolean hat or is always a red tie. It's sort of like distinctive elements that help build your brand and that help differentiate, have your brand set up that is consistent across B2B, B2C, large companies, big companies, et cetera, et cetera. The need for these.

14:15 - Mike (Host)
And again, did the research point to that? Did you find that there were research exercises?

14:19 - Ulli (Guest)
that looked at that Absolutely. But, as I said, you know it's this type of thing where you never pay attention to something and then all of a sudden you start to pay attention and you see it everywhere. And that's exactly what's happening here. The science that is behind it is mind-blowing. The evidence through quantitative research in marketing around the world is mind-blowingly consistent. It's just all of a sudden you see it everywhere, which, after I wrote the book, it's like I was literally. Why doesn't everyone else think it's so obvious? Why do we even have to discuss this?

14:49 - Mike (Host)
So it's distinctive standing out.

14:51 - Ulli (Guest)
So that's really the second point. That's exactly right.

14:53 - Mike (Host)
And then the third one is emotion.

14:55 - Ulli (Guest)
The third one I come back to emotions. I know we talk a lot about emotions, but I am emotionally involved. When I'm learning, I pay more attention. The information I absorb gets branded in my memory in a stronger way than if I'm not emotionally evolved. So the impression is going to be stronger and the recall is going to last longer. So not only will I absorb that information more intensively, but over time it's going to fade more slowly. And that's the problem with memory. Right, Memory fades over time. But if it's an emotional experience I go through when I learn, the memory is going to fade at a much lower level than you know. You probably went to on vacation five years ago and had this tremendous experience, emotional experience. Five years later you remember it. You may have gone to the DMV last week and you had an absolutely appalling learning experience and you repress it. You forgot about it already, unless someone brings it up. You know what I mean. So the emotions really have a tremendous impact, scientific impact, on your memory and your ability to memorize something. It's incredible.

15:58 - Mike (Host)
I think it was Mayor Angelou said many years ago people will forget what I said, they will forget what I've written, but they'll never forget how I made them feel. That is exactly right, and that's what we're talking about.

16:09 - Ulli (Guest)
What's interesting, mike, is there are all these pieces of wisdom right that are 40, 50, 60 years old. Now we have the science to prove them right. You know that's the weird thing is now, because of neuroscience the ability to measure, you know, brain movement and brain activity all of a sudden we can measure and say you know what that quote was actually correct. You know that quote actually was not correct. You know, it's really interesting because the science caught up with this industry. Wisdom, or life wisdom that used to be shared through quotes and stuff like that.

16:39 - Mike (Host)
Interesting. So let me ask you what does that mean? So what do those three elements really mean for a B2B kind of corporate buyer journey when they're buying? Let's take an example you know a business is buying agency services. It's going to be worth half a million dollars a year. It's going to have a big impact on their business. So it's a high stakes decision. If we look at those three principles of and correct me if I'm wrong but the kind of the clarity of being consistent about that kind of like thing that you stand for. Secondly, the distinctiveness standing out. And thirdly, the emotion, what does that mean for an agency when they show up either in their written communication or in their in-person interactions with that brand? What do you think it means? What does an agency have to do to be the winner?

17:27 - Ulli (Guest)
Well, the interesting thing is, the sale, or the sales pitch, starts way before the sales pitch. Right, and what I mean with that way before so in.

17:36
So a university in Australia came up with this concept of 95-5 rule, 95%-5 rule, and what that basically means is that, at any given time, only 5% of all potential buyers are in the purchase market or in the market to currently buy, whereas 95% of them are not yet in the market.

17:56
They might be next week, next month, but they're not buying your product or your service today. And best class marketing shows you and data shows you, that you know. There's always this discussion between brand building and performance marketing, and the studies show that the most effective way is to dedicate a percentage of your marketing activities to those 95 percent. So to build this it's called mental availability, or to build these strong brand associations for potential customers that are not currently shopping your services, and then dedicate a percentage of your marketing activities to performance marketing. And so that means you need not only to focus on what are the two leads I have, but also what are the potential leads I can create. Can I have thought leadership pieces out there? Can I have my work that's spread out there? Kantar, a global research company, calls this brand predisposition. So am I creating predisposition with potential future buyers versus the current shoppers in the market?

18:54 - Mike (Host)
So when I have that problem, the brand I go to is Brand X. That's exactly right, because I'm predisposed to buy from Brand X, that is exactly right, because I've seen their work.

19:03 - Ulli (Guest)
I've seen their thought leadership pieces. Someone has talked about them. They're familiar. Somehow they appeared in my radar as opposed to oh, I need this new service, I have no idea where I'm going to. Let me do a Google search or ask an expert what companies I should be asking to know the response you're going to generate, the reputation you're going to create upfront is going to help you in your immediate sales as well. So that's what most people forget and when they're focused only on performance marketing, and that's what I'm not a big fan of customer journeys.

19:40 - Mike (Host)
Now, don't get me wrong, if you want to pay me $200,000 to develop a full-fledged customer journey.

19:42 - Ulli (Guest)
I will do it. Then you'll be happy to do so. That's exactly right. But in my experience it's not worth the output or the insight. It's not worth the effort you put in there. Much more important is to identify what are my most impactful touch points. That way, I have the most leverage and this 95-5 rule to decide. Okay, you know what do I need to do to convince people who literally are still in the selection process of various suppliers, and what do I need to do to build awareness and mental availability of potential customers in the future? So it's a way more efficient and effective way to build your brand, to build your business.

20:13 - Mike (Host)
And I think there's also a lot of evidence to support today that full funnel marketing is more likely, whereby there is no linear buyer journey. I always think about it as being a bit like an ant walking on a page. You know an army of ants. They'll eventually go in the same direction, but the way they get there looks random. It's not, but it can look quite random and therefore we have to be consistent. As they see different touch points. We have to be distinctive, we have to stand out at each touch point. The emotion bit can you just talk for a second about as a marketing agency. What do you think you would be doing if you were the CEO of an agency that was, say, a full service performance agency, taking into account, you said, obviously it's brand and performance. But if you're a full-service performance agency, what would you be doing to make yourself emotionally resonant with your buyers?

21:04 - Ulli (Guest)
So the interesting thing is I've been in advertising for 15 plus years and I've seen the changes in the advertising from owner-owned agencies, so founder-owned agencies and these corporate companies being purchased by large holding companies, and the biggest decline I see is in the personality of the founders. I think that is a massive draw for a lot of potential customers. Why? Because first you have the feeling that the guy is responsible for the shop, is going to be responsible for the work, but more importantly, the personality of that founder, or the people running the company, is extremely important. And that comes back to we can all be buttoned up, suited up with ties and, you know, be dry and very professional. Letting out your personality, your charisma, is a way to engage someone emotionally. And again, some people will like it, some people won't like it. But what I've learned is that these founders usually attract the type of client that respond to their charisma. Now, that is, even if you're not the founder, let's say, if you're the CEO of a company and you are in the credential presentation or the pitch presentation, let that charisma come out, let that personality come out. If you bring it down a little bit, you notice that as well.

22:18
With the teams right, and every time I've pitched with a team I had a strong connection, strong relationship with. I won Every time. I barely knew the team because we came together the night before and now we're pretending we are best buddies. We didn't win and what you see is the interaction of the team during the meeting. Do they joke with each other, do they tease each other, which for me is perfectly acceptable.

22:44
In sort of like new business presentations and I've done a lot of those you can immediately feel the chemistry of the team itself. Do they tease each other or do they make little jokes and stuff like that, which you may think is maybe not very professional, but I believe it creates an empathy, creates an emotional relationship with your customers, especially if you then involve them in the process. Right, and that comes back to the part do I want to work with those guys? Do I like them? They're charismatic, you know. Is it a fun group? So this is, for me, the emotion that you can bring into a new business presentation the way you can differentiate yourself. It's subtle, but it's extremely powerful.

23:22 - Mike (Host)
So I think there's being distinctive Increasingly. I'm moving away from the words differentiation and USP and more towards being distinctive. Standing out and I think that point is really important is from a buyer's perspective. If we see a team that's connected, genuinely connected, that's when you can tell if it's really a team or a collection of talented individuals. That's exactly right and we want the team, we want you to be able to not give us the answer. Show us how you're going to think about that question and how you're going to engage with us in understanding that problem. That's exactly right.

24:14 - Ulli (Guest)
And even if you say, oh, you're catching me on the wrong foot here or I don't have an immediate answer, let me think it through. So you know you don't have to have an answer for everything, but this candor as well is a strength. Or even if a client says something, makes a statement, and you can kindly disagree, you know it's like that's a great point, but our experience shows something very different. Let me show you why and how. So you know this pushback and this candor I think that a lot of clients are looking for as well.

24:41
So I've learned in my career Mike is I'm a German very direct person, and when I talk to CEOs I never bullshit them. So a client of mine once told me you know, we sometimes disagree, we sometimes argue, but I never have the feeling that you're bullshitting me. I always have the feeling that you have my business interest at heart and I think that's what a lot of people are hoping for and looking for, even if that means disagreeing, even if that means you know that being fully aligned, as opposed to this oh, yes, of course we can do that. Yeah, of course we can. You know, of course I can lower my price. Of course I can work six months for free. Of course I can do all this kind of thing. There are too many people doing that.

25:19
So having someone who is candid, you know, and say, well, I don't think that's a realistic expectation coming out of the project and here's why is refreshing for a lot of these clients and build trust right, builds this notion of who. He knows what he's talking about and you know he's honest in his responses, in the way we we discuss things. So, and that is all emotions, right, that is not rational, that is all. Do I trust the guy? Do I like the guy? Do I think the guy is honest, you know? Do I have confidence?

25:47 - Mike (Host)
those are all emotional reactions that you create through the in-person interaction with those guys yep, and, by the way, for anyone listening, obviously guys means anyone of any orientation, any person, because it's the same. I think that whole thing about trust and I've personally have said to many clients, you know, actually I'm probably not the right solution for you right now. The problem that you've got, now that we've delved into the problem and understood the problem in a lot more detail, I'm actually not the right solution. What you need is you need more of Uli. You need someone that's going to look at your brand, not who's going to look at your ability to qualify, convert and negotiate better.

26:25 - Ulli (Guest)
And the clients find that refreshing and they come back to you. That's the point. So I have clients that I've been working with on and off for 10 years I mean not like ongoing for 10 years but they come back to me every year, every couple of years, and a few of them come actually back to me and have an initial conversation to try to define what is it they're actually trying to solve for, or what exactly is the problem or the task they're trying to define. So it's not this is what I need. Here's my checklist. What can you deliver? It's let's sit down and talk about.

26:56
This is our situation. How could we approach this? What do we need to solve for? What matters, what doesn't? So it's really a formulation of the task and, to your point, if I'm not suited one to deliver against that, then I'll step back or recommend someone. If I'm the one suited to help that, I'll help them. But you enter this relationship where trust, you feel that the partner has your interest at heart as opposed to trying to sell you stuff for the sake of generating revenue. That is gold. That is absolutely gold.

27:26 - Mike (Host)
It is so, Uli, it's been brilliant. We're at 30 minutes, so I'm going to ask you to summarize. So, just like someone listening say they're on their way to work or they've dropped off their kids at school and they're thinking so what are the kind of three takeaways here? What do you think, whether they're a brand or an agency or any other professional services firm, what would you say are the three biggest takeaways from this discussion?

27:50 - Ulli (Guest)
For one is clarity of what you stand for or the associations you want to create, and those need to be associations that are meaningful and relevant to your clients. If you're the cheapest agency in town and a lot of clients are price-focused, communicate it. It's very simple and then communicate it consistently. The second point is really try to stand out as much as possible, and that can be through executional elements, the way your office looks like, the way you're dressed, the giraffe in your conference room, but more importantly, it's by letting your personality shine through right, and part of that is also, for me, the emotions.

28:26
It's don't be afraid to show your. You know, when we see someone present, you know, and make a little mistake, no one is in the audience is going to say, oh, what a loser. He doesn't know how to. Everyone is going to think, oh, that happened to me too. I can exactly feel how that guy is feeling right now. That woman that's number two. And the third one is don't only think about the potential customers that are knocking at your door. Think about the customers that will knock at your door in six months from now and make sure you build this association with them as much as with the ones that are currently knocking at your door, because that's your future seller, that is the equity you build for your company. So those three things, basically Clarity, differentiation through emotions, if you will, and then look at both midterm and short-term leads of potential customers.

29:11 - Mike (Host)
Uli, it's been fantastic. Thank you ever so much for joining me.

29:14 - Ulli (Guest)
No thanks for having me. I had a great time. I enjoyed the conversation.

29:17 - Mike (Host)
Good. Where can people find out more about you?

29:19 - Ulli (Guest)
The best way is probably on LinkedIn Search my name on LinkedIn or check out my website, firstthetrouserscom and there's first-thetrouserscom and you can find me there. To be honest, you can Google me as well. I've written so much that I'll pop up, probably on the top of the page or something.

29:36 - Mike (Host)
And just before everyone goes, why? And first the trousers.

29:40 - Ulli (Guest)
I believe in strategy. First, so many companies focus on execution. I believe in strategy, so I wanted to highlight that. And the second is, I believe strategy is not a rational deductive process. Great strategy is creative problem solving and to express this sort of like creative way to approach strategy, I wanted a name that reflects that. Hence, first and foremost, the slender shoes. And third, I cannot confirm nor deny that a little bit of liquor might have been involved in the ideation process and selection process of that name, uli.

30:13 - Mike (Host)
it's been fantastic. Thank you ever so much for joining. No thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the chat. Thanks for listening to Higgle the B2B Sales Club podcast series with your host, mike Lander. Please subscribe so that you'll catch all the next episodes.