The Secrets of Success in Niche Marketing Revealed with Rob Dando

00:00 - Rob (Guest)
They're based in Sweden. I was thinking to myself, you know, 18 months ago there's no way on this earth a company in Sweden would think I'm going to go to an agency in Canterbury to get a social media strategy. They just would not have done that. The only reason they're doing that is because we are perceived to be the experts in that particular sector.

00:19 - Mike (Host)
My name's Mike Lander and you're listening to Higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast, where we bring you actionable insights about sales, RFPs, negotiations and difficult procurement discussions from sales leaders, brand leaders and procurement leaders. Please subscribe to get updates when new episodes are released. Rob, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast. It's great to have you as a guest.

00:47 - Rob (Guest)
Yeah, thanks, it's an absolute pleasure to be here.

00:49 - Mike (Host)
So, without further ado, who are you? What do you do? And then something unusual about yourself that most people that know you wouldn't know.

00:57 - Rob (Guest)
I'm Rob Dando. I am Managing Director of Finely Agency and we are a B2B full-service marketing agency that specializes in engineering and manufacturing. I've been around for about the last 10 years, but myself. I started building websites when I was 13 years old in my bedroom, and so I've been going for 27 years almost now in the kind of marketing web world. Something that you might not know about me is I was actually one of the extras in Spice Girls, the movie.

01:27 - Mike (Host)
Brilliant, fantastic. How on earth did you get that gig?

01:32 - Rob (Guest)
So actually it was our school year. We were approached and I presume the production company must have approached the school and just said we're looking for a bunch of extras. Our school year happened to be the one picked. So we headed up to London for the day. Brilliant and yeah, with the extras, got there in the morning. So from that opening scene where they're outside the studio, the bus, that's all of us. And then it was a really long day because we ended up in Albert Hall to a genuine before the concert, so where the close-ups are and they zoom in on the crowd. We were doing all that in the daytime and then obviously culminated in the actual concert in the evening. So then we saw the concert and headed home. Yeah, long day but great fun. Remember getting I had a bright yellow Ralph Lauren polo shirt that I wore so I could try and identify myself and got all of the signatures on it, which I assume must be somewhere in my house somewhere.

02:21 - Mike (Host)
Wow.

02:25 - Rob (Guest)
So you met the Spice Girls as well. Met the Spice Girls. All of them were pretty friendly. Victoria less so. She was getting plenty of extra support during the breaks compared to some of the others. But yeah, like they all said, hello, they're quite friendly, had a laugh, yeah, very much. A day that we will never forget.

02:38 - Mike (Host)
Exactly. So let's talk about some business, because that's what we're here for. So we're going to talk about the topic of the value of going niche. So when did you decide to go niche and why?

02:50 - Rob (Guest)
So kind of the idea was first thought about, I guess probably in about 2019, 2020. We actually used to sell that to our clients to a degree. We would always go into discoveries and we worked at that time with such a broad range B2B, b2c and we were going into all these different businesses and kind of trying to find the one thing that made them stand out. And ultimately that's where niching comes from, really, and so we would happily walk in and sell them this package and go well, you're really really good at that. I think that's what you should focus in on and you'll probably do better. And then it was flipped on us really and we said, well, hang on, you know you're charging me to tell me to focus it. Why don't you Eat your own?

03:34 - Mike (Host)
dog food yeah.

03:35 - Rob (Guest)
And we're like, oh you know, actually when you turn it around it's quite a scary thought, you know, only working in this sector. And then, and the truth be told, covid hit and we had some decisions to make and we had a particular client at the time that we were struggling with. Covid kind of enhanced that and we took the decision to part ways with them and they were a very large client for us at the time and it was kind of a very scary thought. But it gave us also the opportunity to kind of practice what we preach and we're like, well, actually, what do we want? What do we want this business to be moving forward?

04:10
So we looked at the clients we had on our roster. We kind of drew out a matrix of pros and cons and there was two or three that really stood out to us as good clients, nice people, regular stream of income, you know, enjoyed the work, it tested us because it was quite technical and they were all in engineering and manufacturing and we kind of felt like, well, hang on a second. You know we like these people. If we can find more people like that, we can have a really nice business. But also we had shown great technical expertise and I think you know my background was coding and kind of that technical aspect was in my blood. My grandfather was an engineer so I kind of liked liked that and I always liked understanding how things work and solving problems and it kind of all just came together quite nicely so we took upon ourselves to go for it really so what did you have to put in place to demonstrate to prospects that you're the go-to agency for kind of engineering and manufacturing?

05:01 - Mike (Host)
and by that I mean you know someone say well, it's easy, you just do a few case studies and you're like well, but if I've got two or three anchor clients, I've only got two or three case studies in that sector. How else do I demonstrate that I'm an expert in their sector and their dynamics? What approach did you take? Because this happens a lot with agencies, especially when they try and go from one sector into another, so they keep one but they want to expand. How do you enter a sector and prove your credentials in that sector?

05:28 - Rob (Guest)
So I think really it's not faking it. I think it's being truthful and genuine. Did we know everything about engineering manufacturing when we took the decision? No, we didn't. We had three really good clients and we've done some great work. So, yes, we had three anchor case studies and we obviously lent on those initially. We case studies and we obviously lent on those.

05:45
Initially, we completely changed the website like fully, fully focused on engineering and manufacturing. We researched and understood what topics that were prevalent in that marketplace and started to produce content for that. We honed in on our personas and we really identified what were the problems that our personas were facing and actually at that time it was that they really don't understand marketing. So we had to again change our language to be quite basic, to really take people on a journey and show them that we're not just here to take their money, but we're here to take them on a journey and understand we can help them go from A to B to C. So everything was done to do that. We all wrote content. Again, this is COVID time. So whenever we had a gap in work, everybody in the agency I think at the time we were about 20, any spare time was focused on either learning about a topic or writing about a topic, and that's what we did, and that was basically about 12 months. I mean, it took 12, I think 12 and a half months, from memory, was the first inbound lead that came in from the moment we took that plunge and then, 18 months in, we got what we deemed to be one of our kind of flagship. So we put some dream clients on a list and 18 months later, one of those dream clients came onto our site. They came onto live chat.

07:00
I remember vividly jumping out of my seat when I saw this live chat pop up and it was a tiny job, mike it was. They just wanted a social media strategy at the time, but it was the wording and I probably still got it in my HubSpot because everything's tracked is that they said we've been told you are the experts in our sector and we need to talk to you. And I was thinking that the magic. That's what we've done all this for they're based in Sweden. I was thinking to myself, you know, 18 months ago, there's no way on this earth a company in Sweden would think I'm going to go to an agency in Canterbury to get a social media strategy.

07:33
They just would not have done that. The only reason they're doing that is because we are perceived to be the experts in that particular sector and so, yeah, from there, that particular client still a client today, part of a big conglomerate who we're now working with five of the businesses and have probably generated nigh on 1.5 million pound of revenue from that conglomerate easily and that all stemmed from a live chat for a 20,000 euro strategy piece for social media. But it really stemmed from the fact that we do engineering manufacturing. They are an engineering manufacturing and they wanted that work.

08:10 - Mike (Host)
So just kind of drilling into that a bit more, what really works? I mean, interestingly so I'm an ex-engineer, so I was in manufacturing. I spent from 16, when I left school, as an apprentice through to 30 in engineering manufacturing. I loved it. I still love it now. My family will still say to you I like fixing things, I like making things, I like solving difficult problems in engineering, and that applies in business as well. If you look at that kind of business, what works in terms of BD, business development and sales and let's call it sales, let's call it what it is, which is basically you're trying to get prospects to be aware of you and then get interested in the old AIDA stuff what really works for them? Because I know, having been an engineer myself and I used to buy product, I know what would work for me as a technical buyer and what would really really really irritate me and turn me off. What do you think worked as a top of funnel and what works today as a top of funnel strategy to get more prospects?

09:10 - Rob (Guest)
So I think one of the things we found is that they're quite traditional and so trade shows is still huge in that world Interesting. We actually, for the first three years we exhibited at many of these shows ourselves, had a stand in amongst their stands. So you know, you imagine you're walking around, you're seeing these big CNC machines. Then you turn the corner and you've got like this, looking like a bar.

09:31 - Mike (Host)
So you're the only marketing agency in a big trade show where there's lots of big machines around.

09:36 - Rob (Guest)
Yeah, one or two agencies, but you know the big, big shows, but and we generally had the best stand right Because we designed it and it looked like a cool bar and people were coming up saying, wow, what a stand. And it stood out because it wasn't the traditional stand that people were coming. So they're like, well, what do you do? And obviously then our-.

09:52 - Mike (Host)
And you've no big machine. It's like you've no lathe here.

09:55 - Rob (Guest)
No no lathe no lasers, no robots, just us and some wacky thing like build your logo out of Lego. And so, yeah, we exhibited, we spoke. We also done a lot of work on LinkedIn. So for anyone that knows me on LinkedIn, they'll see every Wednesday for the past five years I've posted the top 10 posts in UK manufacturing and that's whereby we collate or look for the kind of highest engaged post in the previous seven days using the hashtags UKmanufacturing or UKMFG. And that's a lot of work and it's just. We do it to promote the industry.

10:30
I go to a lot of events around the industry. What I guess I think we've done not necessarily uniquely but differently to some agencies is I understood that we have to go where they go and not go to where anyone else would go. There's no point in me going to Excel and going to a B2B you know, marketing event because they're not going there, but where they are going is to Mac to see all these machines. So let's go there and we did that to build brand awareness and now our brand's known reasonably well in that world. What we do now is just try, and I try and talk, so if I can do a speaking gig again at their events. You think most of the things they're going to hear about is, you know, iot and automation and stuff, and then they'll get little old me popping up going well, how to use LinkedIn to you know, increase your awareness of your brand. That's different. So they want to come and listen and I've had a few slides packed out shows and that helps.

11:22
You know, and we've had great conversations. I mean, sony Electronics come to us off the back of hearing one of my talks and I just don't think that some of the traditional ways of cold outreach is going to work to some of these people. They're too busy and they don't really understand it. So what we try to do is get to them where they are and speak to them on that technical level and, as you rightly say, you know they're kind of very technical people, so I can speak technically. It's not about wishy-washy like have a nice profile picture, put it on a different color background, because that isn't it. What we've got to say is you know, we can show you how to make some changes to your website to increase your visibility by X percent. And we also talked to them truthfully. We did a talk at a show and the audience was probably predominantly engineers or owners of these companies, and they love to say precision engineering right.

12:13 - Mike (Host)
Absolutely one of their favorites.

12:14 - Rob (Guest)
So we did an audit. We looked at 200 websites and of that, 88% of them said precision engineering within the first two paragraphs on their homepage. So I said to them what does it mean? I asked them at the show what does precision engineering mean? Because I don't think many people are going to buy non-precise engineering.

12:31 - Mike (Host)
Like. No one buys customer service.

12:33 - Rob (Guest)
So I was like you're all saying the same thing, you know it's not going to work. So again it comes back to that. Niching or expertise is actually what is it you do really well, and that's what we try and help them identify. It's like, okay, you know you might have five different companies that manufacture tooling for cnc machines, but you all do something slightly different or you wouldn't exist. These aren't small companies, you know. These are global companies selling to global businesses. But that might be a carbide tipped with a certain angle, which is really great for aerospace Perfect. Let's talk to that market then and tell them all about that. And then someone that's got a bit that's going to drill a hole in the middle of a big lump of metal. It's very different and that's okay because you're different. Let's just talk about why that works for them. Instead of trying to all be on the same, we just engineer great things and are really precise.

13:19 - Mike (Host)
And people that listen to my podcast probably going he's going to say trusted advisor again, isn't he? And I'm like, yes, I am, because in engineering, when I was buying component level products to go into a big system we were designing, when I met the salespeople, who were basically either distributors or manufacturers, what I wanted was like, well, I'm the technical buyer. I might not be the purchasing person, the procurement person, but I am the technical buyer. There's no point coming to me if you don't know anything about the product and about the problems that I solve Zero.

13:48
So you've got to talk to me in my language and you've got to be the advisor, because you might say to me that chip that you're looking at, that's probably not what you need, and actually we don't have one that you need. You need this one over here, not from us, from someone else. But when you build your image generation circuitry, what you will need is one of these, because that is compatible with this and we sell this. And then like, yeah, that's helped, talk to me about that a bit more. You've got to be able to help them solve technical problems. You have to be the advisor and that, I think, is what you've just spoken to is you've got to get into their mindset about being a true advisor to their clients.

14:24 - Rob (Guest)
Yeah, and a lot of marketing agencies. I'd love to say there's a magic recipe for marketing. There really isn't. It's about doing the right things well, and that part of it is probably the biggest and everyone will talk about it Identify your ICPs, your personas, and it's kind of spoken about so much that people think it's not part of it, but for me, that is fundamentally what it's about. Particularly in the technical areas that we work, there is nothing more important than understanding that buyer. We ran a campaign, a product launch campaign for a company, and that's exactly what we identified we're like. Actually, we know that the engineers at the machines are not making the purchasing decision 100%. They're not. They don't have budget. They're probably 10 down. However, they are the people using the machines and they are the people using the tools and therefore we do need to target them and tell them why this tool is going to help them. One of the main things was it was going to save them time because it was an interchangeable head, so they don't need to change three things.

15:20 - Mike (Host)
There's no machine setups again. Exactly, you just change the head off, you go.

15:23 - Rob (Guest)
So we basically ran a campaign around, sort of the great Steve Jobs mentioned. You know, you always try and find a lazy person because they'll find the shortest route to success. And you know, that was our campaign was like we're going to help you save time, that's going to allow you to do X, y, z and make them the influencers, make them the influencers in the company so that they are saying hang on, we need these tools and here's why Because it's going to help us save time, which can help save money, blah, blah, blah. And ultimately we kind of came it from the bottom up instead of top down, because actually are the purchasing managers of some of these companies really that interested? They're not necessarily the most technical people in the business.

15:58 - Mike (Host)
They'll have good technical knowledge, but they won't have the same knowledge as the person on the shop floor.

16:03 - Rob (Guest)
No, and so it's just about thinking differently as best as possible and identifying the right message to the right person, which is simple when we talk about it like this, that's what all good marketing should be, but I think, even more so in the technical world it matters because they don't have time and they are just generally busy. So the kind of traditional marketing ploys or the psychological you know we're not in a B2C world, we're not, like you know, trying to get them with the urgency oh, only seven tools remain Seven left. They don't believe it because you'll just make another. They make them. So, yeah, it's just kind of yeah, I think, being trusted, being truthful, being transparent.

16:46
And Marcus Sheridan is a great guy that I follow and love his analogies and his books. His new books just come out and I've met him a few times on a few tours and I just truly believe in what he says, which is just about not being scared to just be honest to your customers, because not every business is right for everyone, and that is okay. And that's what I found about Nishin. We are no longer a great agency for a florist. Could I do work for a florist? Of course I could, but we're not great for them. We're not set up for that, because our setup, our tooling, our thinking is all geared around engineers and their mindsets. So, unless they've had a really bad day and they need to buy some flowers to apologize to somebody, we're not the people for them.

17:28 - Mike (Host)
So am I taking from this that most of your work comes from inbound, that you don't do a lot of outbound, cold prospecting emails or calling or LinkedIn?

17:40 - Rob (Guest)
We've been very lucky in as much as we've had a good stream of inbound and referrals and our best like anyone right Anybody's best piece of business is a referred piece of business. We've had some great longstanding relationships and I'm super proud of those. You know, we kind of got five, six year relationships with some of these customers without ever being put to any form of repitch, and that speaks to the fact that we do good work and speaks to the fact that we work really well with our customers. We try to become an extension of their team and that's what we say and we mean it. We really want to understand their businesses. Some of it takes a lot of understanding. When we're working with LG Electronics, we do their HVAC systems.

18:22
Understanding the complexities of the gas and the different things and European regulations. It's not so you can just pick up and go oh, I've got that, like it took probably.

18:29 - Mike (Host)
Noise levels of different types of condensers Exactly, absolutely.

18:33 - Rob (Guest)
So we kind of built that knowledge over a long period of time and established ourselves as their trusted agents across Europe, because it's inherent knowledge now that we have and we've built. And so, yeah, we kind of do get some good referrals and we stick to sort of very tight niches because of that, you know. So you know there's not that many people that are going to go running for HVAC customers. But also we do do some outbound, or we, you know, certainly we're trying to a little bit, but very, very targeted and not super cold, but at least off the back of our network. So we've worked with this client, this client, this client. You can see that there's a close fit. So it's worth at least trying to say hey, we've helped a client with X, we could probably do the same for you.

19:19 - Mike (Host)
Do you think it's changed in the last 10 years that you've been focusing of focusing on kind of engineering manufacturing? Do you think business development, the way that you get new clients have you seen it change materially in that time?

19:31 - Rob (Guest)
I think perception is it's changed. I'm sure you get the same. I'll book you 10 calls a week messages every day.

19:39
It. Just that's not the truth and we all know that. So I genuinely don't know how those people operate, but I think what's changed is certainly over the last three to four years. Our clientele are certainly more aware of the digital world. You know, when we first started this and it was still very much teams of salespeople on the road. You know, going into factories, and that's still the case. As I said, they're quite traditional market and it still works for them.

20:07
I think, fundamentally, you can't get away from the fact and my grandfather, wise old man, that he is 99 years old, will still tell me that people buy from people and it's about the relationship and I think that's the fundamental truth that I've hung my hat on, for good times and bad times. If you've built a good relationship with a client or a person or someone that's going to refer, that will always stand true. And it might not be all the perfect times. In COVID, some of our clients did cut their budgets, but we had the relationship where they said when things pick up, we'll stick with you, stick with us, we'll stick with you, and they did, and I think that's just a mark of respect and a mark of human nature and none of that can be replaced by a tool like a real, genuine human connection. Seemingly we work with a lot of family businesses, because a lot of engineering companies are family they are family-owned intergenerational.

20:54
Yeah, and they appreciate that, you know. And now we're getting to the point where maybe that generation that's reaching leadership is probably more my generation, and so they understand the tools. They understand that they have to be a bit different, that they can't have 15 people driving around the country, and so they are looking to digital and so is shifting, but they still believe in the traditions and for us it's a balance. It's kind of saying look, we understand that trade shows are really important and we totally believe in that. We work with some of the trade shows themselves to help them. But also it's just about thinking where you put your budget. So a lot of them would go.

21:30
We've got this big standout show. It happens every two years and we basically put all of our money behind it and I'm kind of saying, well, that's great, but what are you doing for the other 500 days? So actually we need to think have a presence, but you also need to have a 75% presence. Take 25% and build up around that show, or have a 25% presence physically and then take 75% of it digitally and let's really amplify what it is you're going there for and making that show. A reason that show should be when you're going to maybe demonstrate something. Maybe a reason you know that show should be when you're going to maybe demonstrate something, maybe the person you've been talking to can come physically see that machine or just actually come and see you to sign a deal, who knows?

22:10
I mean Farnborough Air Show is the classic for that, where a lot of huge deals get signed. We all know that's been two years' work. They're physically putting their signature on a piece of paper and they've bought 25 new aeroplanes. They didn't just get up on the morning and go no, you know what, popping out to buy 25 planes today. So you know it's all. It's just. I think with anything it's about where's the right thing, where's the people, what's the right thing at each stage, and just doing a really good. And I think if you just do your best and speak to people and are human and kind of honest, then it works.

22:42 - Mike (Host)
So we're heading towards the back end of the show. What's the journey like? So how do you keep the faith? How do you know it's working, rather than kind of a potential dead end? Because as entrepreneurs, we know that often you'll be working away and we're 18 months in and you'll think this isn't really working yet at the scale that we need. The temptation is to go. I'll change tack, but actually the right thing to do is to carry on because you're about to break through. How did you kind of keep the faith? How do you know that it's, bluntly, the right strategy and that niching down is the right thing to do?

23:17 - Rob (Guest)
I think deep down we probably all know it is. You know, because you can't be all things to all people. You can't. And I remember the days where you'd get a prospect in and it was completely different to what you've been doing the day before or the week before. And suddenly you're like right here's a new blank piece of paper and it's hard work. And we don't want hard work every single day. What we want is good work. And so actually now we start with a 50% rough paper because we know that, give or take, the sort of sector and audience are going to be vaguely similar. The same things appeal to them.

23:51 - Mike (Host)
So we're already got that great, the same issues will come up.

23:53 - Rob (Guest)
Yeah, so that's great. And so I think, how do you stick with it? I think you kind of you've just got to trust the process and trust your gut and go. I know it is going to work.

24:02
And the thing about niching is if you've built an agency or a business and you're known, known and it's different, I think starting up completely brand new and I didn't do that, I'd been around for a few years before, because this is all an outbound perception right, you come to my website, says we service engineering, manufacturing, we do, and that is 99% of our business doesn't mean to say that if someone rang me up that I know, or referred me and said, look, I've got this person that needs some help, what it gives you is an opportunity to decide whether you will or won't do that work. So if I think, well, there's still B2B, they're sort of vaguely related. Most of our strategies will still apply to them, seem like a nice person and they've got a good budget. Of course we can still do that work. We might not use it as a case study, but that's fine, but, rob, this is an important point point.

24:47 - Mike (Host)
We spoke about this at a conference the other week. Having an ICP is critical, having a niche is critical. Knowing your market is critical.

24:54
You have to do that. Yeah, if someone comes to you out of sector and says I love the work you do, rob, I know one of your clients. They think you're amazing, I'd love you to do a piece of work for us, a project. But we're in financial services. But I'm looking for thinking outside of FS and you kind of bring that. If it's well qualified and the right kind of opportunity for you and you're qualified in and apart from sector, then there's nothing wrong with saying yes. But it doesn't mean you're tomorrow morning going to go. I know what we should do. We should target financial services because one client came to us. No, you stick with the niche strategy.

25:28 - Rob (Guest)
Yeah, 100%, you've got the opportunity. And I think the opportunity is the most powerful thing because, yes, in that example I would probably go perfect. But then if someone come and they said, look, and I've had it, we're a startup, we're in sports, we're going to be, we've got this new insole, we want to get to consumers, I'll be like I probably could help you, but I know that's not where our skill set lies. We don't run those sorts of campaigns day to day, so we won't be the best fit for you. So I think you should go and see my mate over here who does e-com really, really well, and that's fine. And that's what I said.

26:02
The presence you build should be in your niche and you should focus on that and you should put your time and energy into that. But if the phone rings and someone says exactly that example, we're in financial services and I've done the financial service in the last four years. I've done a help to an accountant because it was very similarly aligned. It was just like a slightly different strategy. But that was our decision and we can take it or leave it, and I think that's the nice place to be you don't just suddenly chase the shiny new thing, no you can't, because it does take time, as I said to you 12 and a half months to our first inbound lead, 18 months to our first stream client.

26:36
You know, and I was getting if I'm honest and truthful, I probably was getting a bit patchy and scared in that time. It was also COVID, like the world was mad, you know, and then it kind of waterfall effects, you know, then you'll get a couple and you'll be like, okay, this really works and I think it's. You know, false economies, like when you get contact forms coming in prospects, inbound leads and you're like, but actually, let's be honest, a lot of them are junk and so you can go all over. I only get one inquiry a month now. But is that one inquiry good? Because if it is, that's all you need. You know, I'd rather that than 10 wishy-washy. Oh, I've got 500 pounds to spend on a website. Great, we don't build websites for 500 pounds, so it's not going to work. So actually I don't want to distract myself having a conversation with somebody, because there's no need. Our customers' prospects pre-qualify themselves because our website tells them the sort of customers we work with. Here's our case studies. Here's how much we typically charge. Here's the sort of money we think you should spend to achieve what you want to spend. It's all transparently there, marcus Sheridan-esque Pricing being the biggest thing that B2B are so scared to talk about.

27:38
And I always talk to clients and say well, imagine if you walked into a restaurant and they handed you a menu and there was zero pricing on it, no pricing on it. How would it make you feel? You would feel anxious and like well, do I want the steak? Is the steak £100? Is it £30? Can I afford it? You wouldn't do that. You'd walk out the restaurant or you'd at least say to the waiter sorry, there's no price here, how much is this? Whereas 90% of B2B websites you'll go to and they're like price. Well, we can't tell you the price. Why not? And engineering manufacturing is a great example where they'll go oh, it's all because it's bespoke pricing. I said, yes, it is, but it's also not. You can at least give a range. And I say to someone okay, you know that machine on average is between 750,000 and a million pounds. So even saying that is enough. I'm not asking you to name the delivered price, post-tax, you know, screwed into the floor.

28:31
But at least tell them that these machines start at 750,000.

28:33 - Mike (Host)
So if you've got a 20,000 pound budget, we're not the company to do. You talked, so I'm just about to close now because we're at 30 minutes. I just want to just come back to something as a kind of closing point. Really. Your granddad 99, said people buy from people, and we all know people do. Thought about it for a second and went why would I talk to Rob in business Forget, friend, but in business, why would I talk to Rob? Well, we'd need something in common. We need a common language so that when we speak to each other in a language about engineering, we've all got shortcuts. And if Rob responds in a way which is the same shortcut, then I know I'm with a kindred spirit and I know I can talk to Rob about engineering and marketing and sales, and he'll get it. And he'll talk to me about our manufacturing and the kind of products that we build and the markets we serve, and he'll get it. That's what we mean. We don't mean are you great to go down to the pub and have a drink with?

29:22 - Rob (Guest)
No, do I support the same football team?

29:26 - Mike (Host)
No, all that stuff's kind of nice to have, but that's not why prospects get interested in you. It's because you're speaking their language, speaking their language.

29:34 - Rob (Guest)
Yeah, and it's an alignment, isn't it? And when we do branding work, often a big part of that is saying you need to look and feel like the brand that you want to work with, because they align. If you're the one pound shop in bright yellow and red and big lettering all over your window, you're not going to attract Rolls Royce. And again, all of this is absolutely fine because everything should have its own place. So the reason that a lot of high-end brands, if we think a lot of them, are typically typographic identities, often in black and white or monochrome, because we all perceive that to be high value, expensive, stands to test the time and that's why challenger banks can come in. It's tone of voice and it's how you speak. So when we think about who do we want to speak to, we are trying to language align to those customers, to those people that speak their language.

30:27
We understand lays, we understand milling, we understand turning. We get the CNC machines. We understand milling, we understand turning. You know like. We get the CNC machines. We understand, you know simulation from non-simulation, and that's the point that you're making. Is that then we're cutting out a lot of stuff, and who wants to go on board an agency and spend the first four months hoping they're going to understand what their business does. They haven't got time. They've come to you at that point because they need help. So we can say from day one, we to you at that point because they need help. So we can say from day one, we're not going to know your machines inside out and back to front, Of course not. But we're going to know 75, 80% of the overarching concept of it and we'll learn that 20% really quickly because that's the way we're wired.

31:02 - Mike (Host)
So I sold one of my biggest pieces of work two or three years ago to an engineering company. They're a big global engineering company, and how they found me was they listened to a podcast where I was a guest and their sales enablement lead came to me and said we've been looking for an ex-engineer, because we're an engineering company, who's also an ex-procurement director, because we want to know how procurement works, who now works with salespeople and trains them in negotiation skills. We could only find one. Well, perfect, and that's what we're talking about. Yeah, you've got to stand out from the crowd and go. Well, it's Rob. Then I should talk to Rob, because he'll know about this stuff.

31:38 - Rob (Guest)
Exactly and not change it. You know, the whole time that I've known of you and known you to speak to is you've done what you do, I've done what I've done and in that same time I've probably seen some people be 10 different people. So who are they? You know, actually sometimes it will be a bit quiet, but the next time I'm talking to a customer or a prospect and they say that's what they're looking for, there's only one person I'm going to know and that's the whole point.

32:03 - Mike (Host)
Exactly right, rob. It's been a real, real pleasure. Things at the end. If an agency is listening and they're thinking of niching, what are your just kind of like couple of takeaways about how and why and how do you focus on a niche? What are the two or three things you have to get right? Just in summary, that you've discussed on the call.

32:20 - Rob (Guest)
So I think, take a look at where you believe you have that knowledge and that language and understanding and focus there to begin with. Trust yourselves. It's not going to be a fast process but, as we've said, it doesn't have to be an overnight flip. Maybe your website and your sort of messaging and what you say on LinkedIn that can be an overnight flip. I've helped a couple of other people do this and they're doing well now, but just believe in it and trust the process, and I think probably right now, even more so than ever, I feel like you have to have something that you can truly hang your hat on, and so niching is going to be, for me, essential, no longer a nice to have.

32:57 - Mike (Host)
Rob, it's been amazing. Thank you ever so much for joining me Pleasure. Thank you Thanks for listening to Higgle the B2B Sales Club podcast series with your host, mike Lander. Please subscribe so that you'll catch all the next episodes.