Transforming Lead Generation Via Strategic SDR Use with Gabe Lullo

Mike (00:00.334)
Gabe, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast. It's great to have you on the show.

Gabe Lullo (00:12.411)
Okey dokey.

Gabe Lullo (00:22.043)
Thank you, Mike. You know I'm a huge fan of yours. I'm very excited to be here. Thanks for the invitation and I can't wait to get into it.

Mike (00:27.598)
You're very kind, you're very kind indeed. So I'm really looking forward to this. It'll be a great conversation. The pre-record was fantastic. So the record will be amazing as well. So just talk about, basically who are you, what do you do, and something unusual about yourself that people may not know.

Gabe Lullo (00:43.343)
Yeah, so I am the CEO of Elioup. We are one of the leaders in sales development as a service. Simply put, we provide, build out, run, and architect SDR sales development functions for companies. So companies who are startups or founder led sales companies come to us to build out the function from scratch for them because they don't maybe have the wherewithal or capital to do so.

And then we work with huge enterprise organizations, zoom info, Adobe, Peloton, rely on our SDRs to run their go to market. So that's what we do. And something that is a fun fact about me that most don't know unless they get to know me a little bit is when I was younger, I used to be a professional juggler and, it's funny. Yeah. So yeah, like machetes flaming. yeah. I got paid. got paid, traveled the country.

Mike (01:27.49)
Wow. So that again, a professional juggler. You got paid to juggle. Really?

Gabe Lullo (01:38.515)
did competitions, know, did events. Yeah, I wanted to go to clown school, but my mom said no, so I went to business school instead.

Mike (01:40.297)
Wow.

Mike (01:49.688)
So I'm sure that was a better economic choice, but clown school sounds amazing.

Gabe Lullo (01:53.113)
Yes, I don't know. I have some friends that are like literally still like in their 40s and they're pro jugglers. You know, work at Carnival Cruise Line and yeah, Cirque de Soleil, Las Vegas. very, very different, you know, chosen career path that I went down, but could have been one could have been one.

Mike (01:59.79)
Brilliant.

Mike (02:03.757)
Wow.

Mike (02:11.186)
fantastic! What's the most unusual thing that you've been juggling and how many of them?

Gabe Lullo (02:16.379)
Well, it's funny, Mike, actually this week my daughter does a medieval night at her school for sixth grade. So it's like this Renaissance medieval night. And I'm actually the digester and I'll be juggling machetes. Yeah, so I'll be juggling machetes in front of the school. I hope I hope I make her proud. I'm trying to be the cool dad of the of the year.

Mike (02:24.003)
Amazing.

Are you?

Wow.

Mike (02:34.019)
Wow

you definitely would get that prize. How many machetes are you juggling?

Gabe Lullo (02:41.207)
I could do four myself, but I literally have a juggling partner. We could do seven together and pass them back and forth. So yeah.

Mike (02:48.17)
Okay, you have to get a video of that. You have to send it to me. That's amazing. I can juggle three balls, but I can't do any more than that. And I certainly couldn't juggle my Shetty's. Anyway, let's move on to the questions. So what's an SDR and why did the tech firms kind of start using them? What happened?

Gabe Lullo (02:50.883)
Okay. Okay.

Gabe Lullo (02:58.811)
Yeah.

Gabe Lullo (03:10.297)
Yeah, so about 10, 12 years ago, the SDR role was really born. know, technology, SaaS, data companies really coined the phrase SDR, sales development rep. Now, admittedly, it's been around forever, right? A lot of companies call them appointment setters, you know? And so essentially, the role in a sentence is they focus 100 % of their time prospecting. So they're essentially calling, prospecting, emailing.

Mike (03:24.482)
Yeah. Yep.

Gabe Lullo (03:36.603)
Knock it on doors virtually to get attention of prospects qualify them to determine they're the right fit and then pass the baton to the account executive or sales executive to do the demo and click take it to the close so That's what the SDR role has been and and you know is today

Mike (03:57.1)
And how successful was it, Gabe, in terms of why did so many tech companies start using it? What were the kind of success rates? Has the market changed? That kind of stuff.

Gabe Lullo (04:08.345)
Yes. So was it successful? Yes. I mean, here's how we looked at it. You're paying an account executive or sales executive, whoever you call it, a six figure salary, a high commission structure, and you're putting all the responsibility of closing deals and driving revenue on their shoulders. But what they found out is they were spending 80 % of their day not doing that. They spent 80 % of their day actually prospecting. So do we want someone who is that expensive and that valuable to

Mike (04:33.56)
Good insight, yeah.

Gabe Lullo (04:38.053)
Prospect all day long no so they turned into a you know a kind of an assembly line of you a few will of the sales cycle and So was it successful yes has it changed and evolved? Almost night and day from when a decade ago to today. You know technology different channels email automation AI You know where your prospects are living you know people aren't picking up the phone as much spam blockers so there's a lot of different tools and technology and

in things, if you will, that have created opportunity for sure, as well as involvement of the role.

Mike (05:14.744)
Brilliant. And something else that I didn't prepare, because we always do this, Gabe, we have a conversation, then something in my head goes, what about? So what makes a great SDR, do you think? All the ones that you've seen in your career as a senior leader, as a CEO, what do you think makes a great SDR?

Gabe Lullo (05:23.503)
Yeah, fire away.

Gabe Lullo (05:37.083)
Yeah, it's funny. I always say this and this is my cliche. I'd rather deal with somebody who is ignorance on fire than knowledge on ice. Ignorance on fire than knowledge on ice. And what does that really mean? It's really about attitude, right? If you're new and you're excited and hungry and have a positive attitude and willing to run through walls and do the hard work, frankly, I'd rather have that and train them up to be really good than someone who is just

Mike (05:45.068)
Right?

Mike (05:50.392)
Brilliant.

Gabe Lullo (06:05.807)
you know, so involved in knowing every answer to every single question, but boring to talk to and isn't willing to do the hard work. And so that's what we look for.

Mike (06:13.111)
Yeah.

Brilliant. That's the best. In a nutshell, I've probably heard about the role. Well done. So that leads me on to question two. So if you now look at, let's move away from tech firms and look at professional services firms. So how can professional services firms use kind of SDRs for lead generation? And when is it most appropriate, do you think?

Gabe Lullo (06:36.291)
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, we are the best use case, right? We are a professional services company ourselves. And ironically, we have our own SDR team and we book all of our appointments through our own SDR team. So is it viable for sure? And we have staffing firms, you know, we have financial advisors. I literally have a professional tailor, like actually makes custom suits for executives, has an SDR that's booking appointments.

Mike (06:41.164)
Yep.

Gabe Lullo (07:03.087)
to executives. have professional fitness people who are selling their fitness services to high level executives. So there's absolutely a need for it. I think it's really powerful in the founder led sales space and professional services. Those sole entrepreneurs, those fractional CROs, those again, those bespoke services that are available. I think it's great there. And we've done a lot of great engagements with those types of companies.

Mike (07:04.6)
Amazing.

Mike (07:30.956)
Interesting. what kind of, what do the economics look like? Because obviously, I guess the fear for anyone listening, yeah, they're starting to go, okay, get the nest, what an SDR does. It's the appointment booker bluntly to hand off to someone that is the deep expert or the BD person. But economically, can like, does it work? I mean, it must work or else the role wouldn't exist. But what makes those

kind of economic dynamics work? Because there must be a certain kind of value, customer value, that comes off the back of an SDR booking calls. Like low value stuff, I guess wouldn't work. So does it tend to be high value services? Is that where it tends to play best?

Gabe Lullo (08:15.439)
Yeah, I mean, there has to be an ROI or it's not working, right? So economically, that's how we measure it. And we have SDRs that have more transactional low service contracts, but it's a high volume play and you need a lot of those in order to justify it. We have ERP systems that are six figure annual contracts. And if you get one deal a year, makes it pays for itself, right? So you have to measure it that way for sure. Does it work? think that's the big question is,

you are we making money on this? And the reality is there's a lot of factors that would have to be determined on whether or not it's a fit or not. Here's what I do know. It is extraordinarily expensive to do it on your own. And this isn't a plug. mean, the bridge group, which tracks all these things said last year in their report that it costs about $160,000 a year to support an SDR. And that's really where I think most companies get it missed, right? I could just hire someone.

Mike (09:07.096)
Wow.

Gabe Lullo (09:11.323)
Pay him a payroll and that's my cost. No. Yeah, it's usually double the payroll to support one as it is to just pay for the rep. So you have to think two acts of whatever you're gonna pay the rep. It's also gonna be that same amount to support them. And what does support mean? Data licenses, contacts, counts, right? A dialer, an email tool, cadence is being built, email platforms, a manager, a compensation structure.

Mike (09:12.578)
That's my next question. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Gabe Lullo (09:39.415)
Tracking and dashboards and CRMs and sales engagement tools like that's where it starts getting expensive And that's if you do it at a small level So what we look at is if you're getting to that 10 to 12 number and headcount number That's where it kind of starts to make sense to do this yourself because you can get good price points a manager some processes in place to manage that type of Size team, but if you're in the onesie twosie, yeah

Mike (10:06.382)
as in 10 to 12 SDRs, yeah. Right, whereas if you're at the ones and twosies, then as you say, I think it's not just a cost problem, it's a who's gonna train them? Who's gonna mentor them? Who's trodden that path before? Who's gonna keep them keen and, you know, on it? Yeah. Yeah.

Gabe Lullo (10:08.975)
That's exactly right. Yeah.

Gabe Lullo (10:18.661)
Yeah. Yep.

Gabe Lullo (10:25.723)
And then you got backfilling, right? Because the tenure of this role, a lot of people wanna start here and then move into an account executive role in six to 12 months. So if you're projecting that, then you have to backfill it and retrain them every 30 days, or every six months I should say. And so that's where it also gets expensive, that recruitment arm is also costly.

Mike (10:46.446)
So that's a really fascinating point, Gabe. I spoke to a colleague of mine in my network about a year ago having a lunch. And he's got his own SDR team. They find office space for businesses in and around the UK and abroad as well. And he was saying, it's really interesting. I said to him, what makes it, it was effectively an SDR. He's got an SDR team. And there's about 10 of them out of interest.

Gabe Lullo (11:06.159)
Mm-hmm.

Gabe Lullo (11:13.071)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (11:15.022)
because he'd obviously reached that tipping point. And he said, I absolutely know. He said, first of all, attitude, definitely. He said, secondly, they need to want to be an SDR as a career. If they want to be a sales exec, and this is merely a short stepping stone, he says that never works out for us because they just want to move on to being a sales exec.

Gabe Lullo (11:32.207)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, in the interview process, if I ask, know, what are you looking for, you know, or what questions you have for me? And their first question is, what's growth look like? When can I get promoted? I mean, I appreciate that question. And I think it's great. But as an SDR service, you know, there's not much growth after after the role. Now there are roles, and you can be a more advanced SDR. But if you're looking to be a sales executive in the next six months, and you think being the SDR is the way to go.

Mike (11:47.864)
Of

Mike (11:52.418)
Yeah, sure.

Gabe Lullo (12:03.831)
It's probably not going to happen and it's not as it does not happen as quick as it used to in this marketplace.

Mike (12:08.492)
Yeah, yeah. And it may be a good tactic to adopt someone who wants to be a salesperson, get experience of doing the kind of cold calling and cold emailing, but as a provider of that service, they're not the right recruit for you.

Gabe Lullo (12:20.665)
Yeah, for sure, exactly. And there's a lot of people that are like, well, why do people want to be an SGR? I have a guy who's nine grandkids and he's an SGR. He's one of the best SGRs we've ever hired that works here. You we have people from all walks of, yeah, all walks of life. you know, I've seen a lot of account exec, all ages, all walks of life. You know, we have people from all different backgrounds. The one thing we look for is of course attitude, we talked about.

Mike (12:30.574)
Really?

Mike (12:36.3)
And all ages, importantly. All ages.

Gabe Lullo (12:47.107)
and their ability to communicate. Like are they effective? Are they fast and quick on their feet? You know, when doing cold calls, I call it like Saturday Night Live, like it's live. know, email is pre-recorded, right? You can take your time, you can do 15 drafts, you can cut, paste, you can craft. It's like producing a movie. But here, it's improv. And when you're doing a cold call, you're on improv, and if you mess it up, you don't get a redo, right?

Mike (12:58.732)
Yeah. You can craft. Yeah.

Mike (13:08.096)
It's exactly...

Mike (13:13.594)
No, you don't get a redo. And you've got about probably, wow, what, between seven and 12 seconds to get to the next 12 seconds. Takes a skill. Takes a certain skill to do that.

Gabe Lullo (13:20.995)
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's, I always say it's very hard to do, but it's simple, right? We try to get people to say yes to a 30 minute window of time. Sounds pretty simple, but it's difficult for sure.

Mike (13:36.814)
So does this stat also tie up? So quite a lot of received wisdom now and research that says 95 % of buyers aren't in the market at any one time. So only 5 % of people that could buy are in the market. So does that mean that for every 100 calls, providing it's a reasonably targeted list, there are probably only five of those people that are at that moment in that kind of like quarter?

Gabe Lullo (13:50.341)
That's right.

Mike (14:05.352)
looking to do something. Would that kind of be right or not?

Gabe Lullo (14:09.997)
It is and but we don't stop and only silo it out to just appointments. You know, that's where that 5 % lives. What we look for is the fortune is in the follow up, right? If you add to that, there's about 15 % of people who are open to evaluating and timing is the only thing that's off. So there's a difference between open to buy and it's like it's shopping versus buying, right? Right? Are you at the did you go to the dealership?

to go shop or did you go to the dealership to buy? Are you test driving or are you purchasing, right? And it's the same concept. So if you look at 20 % of the market, including the 5 % you mentioned, is shopping and then that 5 % is ready to buy. We care about who's shopping. Are you willing to look? Does this make sense to make decisions over the next six to 12 months? Would you be open to evaluating or comparing to what you currently have today? Those are the things that STRs have to be good at figuring out on those calls.

Mike (14:41.55)
to buy. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (14:47.822)
Gabe Lullo (15:07.673)
And we want to pass, we call them warm leads, are the shoppers and hot leads are the buyers.

Mike (15:14.287)
Brilliant description, again, fantastic. Because again, I was talking to a guy this morning about exactly this, and he said, you know, what we do is exactly what you're talking about. They've got, I think about six or seven people internally that are salespeople that don't have SDRs per se. But he said, yeah, once someone's downloaded a thought leadership paper or been to a webinar or been to a breakfast with us, you know, they're in the kind of market at some point probably to buy, but they're shopping, they're not buying.

Gabe Lullo (15:29.563)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (15:41.388)
the job now of the salesperson is to nurture that relationship professionally until they're ready. And at that point, hopefully you're front of mind. And I guess it's very similar.

Gabe Lullo (15:52.355)
Exactly. mean, here's the reality. You know, we want them to be aware of who we are. you know, the response if someone is saying no, it's like, okay, are you saying no, are you saying not now? Because if you're saying not now, let's have a conversation, you get to know us a little bit. And then when you're ready to start pulling those triggers, you're calling us back and thinking of us before, you know, you start making those decisions again. And that's how we look at it.

Mike (16:17.08)
So interesting, if someone was looking at that someone's listening and they're thinking, you know, might in-source this, you can outsource it. I've got a few people, maybe I could build a team. If you look at all of the ancillary things that wrap around an SDR to make an SDR successful, what does that kind of tech stack look like alone?

Gabe Lullo (16:35.951)
Yeah, I look at it as an F1 race car. You could be a phenomenal driver, but if you're in a horrible car, you're not gonna win the race. Now, you can be an okay driver and in a phenomenal car, and you could probably get on the podium. Now, you have to be a great driver and a great car, but if you think about it, Mercedes has 1,000 employees building that car for one driver. And so, it's the enablement piece that wraps around that SDR.

Mike (16:50.083)
Yeah, yeah.

Gabe Lullo (17:01.817)
And again, is the expensive part and is also the hard part to master and figure out. And you don't wanna really do it for one driver. You wanna do it for multiple seats. so that's how we look, yeah, exactly. So that's how we look at it in regards to enabling the rep. I don't know if I answered your question, but.

Mike (17:08.898)
No, for a team, yeah.

Mike (17:18.272)
And that's, yeah, no, no, I think you did because, again, it talks to anyone that's listening and they're thinking, I've got a pipeline problem. You know, let's say they're turning over 10 million. In any one year, I always reckon if you turn over 10 million of fees, probably 2 million come from net new business. And 8 million is probably what you've hopefully carried forward. You've retained, you've renewed, you've upsold, et cetera. So they're going, that 2 million, you know, this year we didn't hit two, we hit one.

So, well next year I want to hit two. Maybe I'll recruit one or two SDRs. I think what you're saying basically is, sure, you could try that. The reality is you're probably going to buy a whole world of pain going through that journey because you're subscale.

Gabe Lullo (18:04.645)
Yeah, absolutely. Like I said before, you don't want to build out an SDR function to support one or two reps. If you do that, you're spending a lot of money that you shouldn't have and you're wasting a lot of time because they probably won't be in that seat in 12 months. So you have to redo it all over again. And so having an on-demand SDR plus a service enabled, supporting that is the better way to go. Now, again, obviously we're an outsourced SDR agency and that sounds great, but...

Mike (18:19.734)
Exactly. Yep.

Gabe Lullo (18:33.115)
When you get to 10 to 12, we recommend to our clients, hey, take, you can buy this out and take it from there. You know, zoom info is a great example. They started their company using our SDR team for a number of years. And then once, once they were able to have the much as much capital and bandwidth to do it themselves, they actually, the, head of sales development, the senior vice president right now today used to work here as one of our first SDRs on the project. So.

Mike (18:58.648)
Brilliant.

Gabe Lullo (19:00.015)
So it's a great example of taking it over and then bringing it in-house for sure.

Mike (19:05.942)
That kind of leads us on nicely to a question that I might just kind of like rephrase a little bit. But the question was, what have you learned about content led lead generation that you could share with the audience? The precursor to that question is, go back 10 years, SDRs were probably doing quite a lot of really true cold calling. Hit the phones, get someone on the phone, get past the first 10 seconds, get beyond that and find out if they're a shopper or a buyer.

But from what I'm hearing, that market's kind of changed quite a lot. SDRs are no longer just hitting the phones. They're now looking at content generation and getting content in the right hands of the right kind of people. Just talk to me about content generation and how that's affected this kind of role.

Gabe Lullo (19:54.649)
Yeah, so when we started, we always knew that there was things that needed to be supported that we can provide to help the SDRs get more leads for our clients. And one of the things we did content wise was writing emails and also creating explainer videos, like little things like that. We never claimed to be a marketing firm. We don't build websites. We don't build ads or something like that. We don't do SEO, but little things where like, hey, we'll make an explainer video so the SDR could have something content wise to...

book a meeting and use that as leverage. Now what we're doing is LinkedIn social content. Moreover, we're actually having the SDRs every single day on their calendar to like, share, comment and create posts organically for LinkedIn. We're also creating content opportunities for our founder led sales clients where we'll actually interview them like this on a podcast and create custom videos in their own words so they can, our SDRs could use that as social

Mike (20:38.637)
Aha!

Gabe Lullo (20:53.651)
from the founder, from the leader, from the head of the company and drive appointments using that as social proof. No different than we would supply them with an email like we use, and now we do that obviously a lot, but that was a new idea we had 10 years ago. everyone's making cold calls, why don't we do emails too, right? It was like, hey, everyone's making cold calls, why don't we send notes on LinkedIn DMs too? Now it's let's create content for our SDRs to have more arsenal.

in their pocket to get more meetings. So that's what we do now. Yeah, it's huge.

Mike (21:25.866)
And how's that changed conversion rates?

Gabe Lullo (21:30.139)
Yeah. So it's interesting. We've seen two companies and we have this information that most companies don't because we're an agency. So we have two companies over the last couple of years that are direct competitors that work with us. Right. And so they are 100 % direct competitors in every sense of the word. And we're doing the same thing results wise, top of funnel. We're booking 20 meetings on this client and we're booking 20 meetings on this client every month. But here's what's happened. We noticed that client A was getting an 80 % show up rate.

actually showing up to the appointment we booked and client B was getting a 30 % show up rate and everything was the same across the board, literally. But the difference was one was producing content, doing social proof, creating blogs, newsletters, consistently being in front of people on LinkedIn and continually doing some great content. And the other one is crickets. And so we determined that the reason why that was happening was because of that social proofing. So it is absolutely important.

Mike (22:04.707)
Wow.

Gabe Lullo (22:28.74)
And it creates trust, which I think is the most important thing in sales, almost instantly. And that's really where we see content being so important in this day and age.

Mike (22:39.726)
Yeah, really interesting. And I think, again, lots of research is pointing to this in the last couple of years is that if buyers have got like 11 touch points before they're going to talk to a salesperson, they often don't want to talk to a salesperson anyway at all. If they could, they'd rather not talk to a salesperson. So the more rich content you can give them, the more we can help educate them, the better in many ways.

And so I think that whole content piece has become really interesting along with the trusted advisor is back. You know, if you look at thought leadership, Salesforce recent survey, I think it was like number 11 about three years ago. Now it's one of the top three. So one of the top three things that a buyer looks for now is are you a thought leader in your space? And that's typically through podcasts and thought leadership papers and webinars and conferences.

and all sorts of other things which position you as a thought leader. Does that resonate?

Gabe Lullo (23:41.659)
Yeah, it's funny, like 100%, I mean, years ago we all heard about white papers, right, and even case study. No one's asked me for a white paper in two years, right? And because, you know, but they do ask, hey, what's your newsletter look like, or do you have a blog, or I see our prospects engaging on our content. I post seven times a week on LinkedIn. Years ago, I never even thought to do that, but now we are tracking it.

And we're seeing 50 % of our leads are coming in from our, of course, outbound efforts. And other 50 % is our own content that's being created. And we're now seeing even more so a partnership scenario really trending as we speak. Referral partners, organic, you know, that dark web type of a thought process, right? You know, here being in Slack channels and group channels and communities are really powerful these days, which is more of the same when it comes to social and content.

another variation of it.

Mike (24:40.022)
Exactly, so being in a close-knit community whereby there are natural relationships that have been formed and they're trusted relationships.

Gabe Lullo (24:48.399)
Yeah, absolutely.

Mike (24:50.776)
Gabe, this has been amazing. So to conclude, what would be your top three kind of tips to an organization thinking about the whole SDR thing, lead generation, know, should I, shouldn't I? But let's say they are like 10 million revenue and they're like, from what I've heard from Gabe, doing it myself is a bad idea. What would you say is a good starting point to get into, is this right for me?

Gabe Lullo (25:18.971)
Well, inspect what you expect, right? Think about what are your sales executives doing right now and measure it and determine is what they're doing the best use of their time. If you're noticing that they're spending 60, 70, 80 % of their time prospecting, think about how much more time and money you would make if they were spending 100 % of their time selling. And I think that was really a great reflection point and that would be step number one is to just do a quick audit.

Mike (25:41.121)
Yes.

Gabe Lullo (25:46.809)
of your existing sales team and see what's actually happening. Number two, I would determine data, right? It's just math to us. Everything is math. If you don't have a big total addressable market, if you don't have a lot of data to warrant an attack to the marketplace from a sales development team, that would be something you would have to really look at and consider. Now we provide data for all of our campaigns, but still we base it on the total addressable market.

So if your total addressable market doesn't allow us to go to the market in an aggressive way, that would be something you have to really evaluate. And then third, I always say, try before you buy, before you buy a sales engagement platform like Outreach or Apollo, or you buy Orem or Nooks and you buy a dialer and you hire a VP of sales development, before you invest in all of that, try with an agency, do an A-B test, run an agency against

an STR you have in-house if you already have one and see what works more effectively and then go that route. That's how I, three steps of how I would look at it.

Mike (26:54.254)
Brilliant, Gabe. Thank you ever so much indeed for being on the podcast. Thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you.

Gabe Lullo (27:00.325)
Thank you, Mike, it's always great to see you.

Mike (27:02.639)
And just one last thing, where can people find more about you?

Gabe Lullo (27:07.151)
Well, LinkedIn, as you would have probably guessed from this podcast. Yeah, LinkedIn is the way we communicate to the world. And there's a lot of free stuff. I have a newsletter that comes out every two weeks. We contribute to revenue magazine.com. And we are for free, you can see that and then you can also check out all of our posts on our website, we do a ton of podcasts, so a lot of free information about what we do. But if you have any questions, send me a note and I love to talk.

Mike (27:09.122)
Yeah, absolutely. I think LinkedIn.

Mike (27:35.394)
Gabe, thank you. I'm sure we'll be talking again very soon. Thanks. And we're out. Let me just stop the recording and let's just check that.

Gabe Lullo (27:38.555)
Looking forward to it.

Gabe Lullo (27:42.555)
All right.