When Founders Need to Hire a Sales Team with Jeff Mains

Mike (00:27.394)
Jeff, thanks ever so much for joining me on Higgle, the B2B Sales Club podcast. It's great to have you.

Jeff Mains (00:37.944)
Very good.

Jeff Mains (00:42.158)
Okay, very good. Yes.

Jeff Mains (00:55.106)
Thanks Mike, it's great to be here.

Mike (00:56.84)
I'm very privileged. I was on your show and you were kind enough to say that you'd come on mine, which I'm really looking forward to. So without further ado, kind of who are you for the audience? What do you do? And something unusual about yourself.

Jeff Mains (00:59.638)
Yes.

Jeff Mains (01:03.639)
Absolutely.

Jeff Mains (01:13.11)
Of course, of course. Well, Jeff Mainz, serial entrepreneur and growth expert.

We'll do that again. Editors can take care of that. Here we go. Three, two. I'm Jeff Mainz, serial entrepreneur. I've built five companies, over 260 million in annual combined revenue and sold four of those. I'm still currently CEO of Fintech SaaS company called Intelligent Contacts and founder of Champion Leadership Group, which is a scale up accelerator. And we help B2B SaaS companies grow, scale and exit.

Mike (01:33.421)
Wow.

Jeff Mains (01:47.918)
specifically in the one to $10 million range. And then we've got another program that's 10 to 50 million plus. I've written a couple of books. The first one here, Small Fish Big Pond, Building a World Class Business that Swim Circles Around Competitors, best seller in the business category. Second one is coming up soon. And that is called The Captain's Keys, the four key people every successful leader needs. And as you said, have a podcast called SaaS Fuel.

Mike (01:55.021)
Wow.

Mike (02:02.936)
Ha.

Mike (02:16.204)
Yeah, which is amazing.

Jeff Mains (02:17.336)
So something unusual about myself, my employees gave me the nickname captain a number of years ago, because I'm always on in or under the water. So I spend a lot of time on boats, fishing, scuba diving. do a lot of photography and videography underwater and specifically for sharks. So I'm one of the crazy people that gets in the water with sharks. And so that is something that's a little bit unusual.

Mike (02:26.231)
Okay.

Mike (02:35.81)
Wow.

Mike (02:40.728)
Amazing. How did you get into kind of observing sharks? What happened?

Jeff Mains (02:45.08)
I've been fascinated with sharks since I was a kid. Yeah. When read every book in the library about sharks and just fascinated with it. And then it sounds impressive. I mean, back then there weren't that many books about them. There's a lot more, known now. And so it one of those things that was just always fascinating to me. And then the, the opportunity came to scuba dive and you start seeing sharks and just amazing experiences. And then so started seeking those out and, really, you know, those interactions and experiences have been amazing.

Mike (02:47.713)
Okay.

Mike (02:55.127)
Yeah.

Mike (03:13.592)
Have they been all around the world?

Jeff Mains (03:15.682)
Yes, I've been all over the world, every ocean.

Mike (03:17.622)
Wow. Really? Every ocean?

Jeff Mains (03:20.226)
Well, I say except for the Atlantic or I say not Atlantic, the Arctic, the Arctic or Antarctic. So I guess, you know, not every ocean.

Mike (03:24.044)
Right, okay.

Mike (03:27.916)
No, no, but pretty much most. Brilliant. again, having someone on that's built companies to that kind of exited them, very, very few people build a company and then exit. But to do it several times and to the scale you've done, this is going to be a fascinating episode for anyone that's involved in the kind of like the commercial area of growing any kind of business, but particularly services businesses, tech companies.

Jeff Mains (03:30.102)
Yes, yes.

Mike (03:55.576)
and agencies, which is a lot of my clients and network contacts. without further ado, let's get into the questions and let's have a discussion. So how do you move from that kind founder led selling to a kind of sales team? Because a lot of my friends, know, build companies and we all know you get to like the first 250, 500k of revenue, then it gets beyond you and you need to bring in other people and

part of bringing in other people is, well, when do you bring in a salesperson? And then I think most founders try it, doesn't work, tried again, still hasn't worked. So they still end up being founded at salespeople up to about that one and a half, two million mark. And then it's just too much of a stretch. And then they have to start engaging with, I've got to build a sales team. And it's really, really, really difficult in my view. So what's your experience, Jeff?

Jeff Mains (04:43.106)
Right.

Jeff Mains (04:53.23)
Well, you know, just the story you just told was my experience. You know, I've done that and I've lived that journey. So it's, you know, it's not like I got it right the first time. and, I didn't get it right the second time or third time. It's, it is, you know, very difficult to make that transition. And so some of the reasons for that and some of the mistakes that I made, one of those was, you know, thinking, you know, you're right that the business has to scale beyond me. So.

Mike (04:57.344)
Right.

Mike (05:04.375)
Right.

Jeff Mains (05:21.346)
I need to hire a salesperson. So if I hire a salesperson, that equals more sales. Actually, no, doesn't. There's got to be a knowledge transfer. And so one of the big mistakes that I see and that I've made is hiring a salesperson and then just turning them loose, giving them a little bit of training one or two days and then saying, OK, here you go. Get out there and sell because you're a salesperson. So apparently, you know how to do this better than I do.

That never works because there are a lot of things that the business has been successful because you do know some things. know, even people I hear it all the time, technical founders will say, well, I'm not a sales person. Of course you are, you know, the same way that you gather requirements and, know, find out what people want is exactly the same thing you do in the sales process. but as a founder, we know things, we have experience. we do things that are, you know, we don't necessarily know that we do. They're not conscious.

And so working with a salesperson and so doing some joint selling, working with them, you know, letting them, you know, watch your, last sales calls. You know, if you're doing it over the phone, you know, those are gold to record those and let them watch, let them see the ones that you want. Let them see a few that you lost. but then don't just leave it at that actually work with them. And so I don't think that there's this hard transition between founder led sales and a sales team. There is a transition.

Mike (06:26.945)
Exactly.

Mike (06:44.97)
I'd agree. Definitely.

Jeff Mains (06:47.018)
And so somebody was talking to the other day said, it's not like, one train. Do you think about, you know, the sales train and it's not like one train stops and then, you know, another train takes off and that's your sales team. It's kind of like two parallel tracks and any use the analogy of, know, you're trying to get baggage transferred from one train to the other. So you have these parallel tracks running, you're throwing bags over as quickly as you can, but it's a process.

And I think that there's always a role to play for founders. So it's not like, you know, I'm going to hire a sales team and then I'm out. you'll start to step back a little bit and in different areas and you're not involved in every deal, but you are still involved in strategic deals. You become an executive sponsor in deals. So there's, there's this idea of this transition from founder led sales. It's, it's a slow transition. It's over time and in something that you never really let go of.

Mike (07:11.884)
Exactly.

Mike (07:38.838)
Yeah, exactly. and I think I was taught a model many, many years ago, see this kind of resonates. I completely agree with you. You can't just employ a salesperson, give them a couple of days training and say, get on with it and hope that it succeeds. It doesn't work. But the idea that you bring someone in, the first thing they do is they observe you. And then when they've got the hang of that, then the second thing is you do it together. And then the third thing you do is they do it and you watch them. And that kind of gentle transition.

Jeff Mains (07:50.434)
Right.

Jeff Mains (08:01.304)
Yes.

Jeff Mains (08:05.101)
Yes.

Mike (08:07.485)
of the knowledge transfer, that can work really well.

Jeff Mains (08:12.73)
It's difficult though, as a founder, when you think about that process, because you want to hire a salesperson because you're trying to offload things, you're trying to get some of your time back. And you're thinking, well, if I have to do all this other work, I might as well just do it myself. And that's another problem. Another mistake that I've made is you hand something off and then you take it back from them. And this person's not doing it right. And right meaning that they're not doing it the way I would do it.

Mike (08:20.524)
Yeah. Yep.

Mike (08:26.488)
Hahaha

Mike (08:41.067)
Exactly.

Jeff Mains (08:41.144)
So that's right. And so it may be different. It's not right or wrong in reality, but you it's that perception of, they're doing it, you know, a different way and maybe it's better. Maybe it's not, maybe there is a way that they need to be doing it. Maybe they're saying some things that are not exactly perfect. So there's some, steering that needs to happen there, but really working with them.

Mike (08:46.242)
Correct.

Jeff Mains (09:02.254)
But, you know, it's not, you know, taking it back. another one is, you know, hiring a hotshot sales first person from a competitor or who's done something great at another company. So you hire the superstar and come in and you think that they're going to be Superman and save the day. That won't happen either. A lot of times they may not know why they were successful or maybe they're, this happens a lot. They're taking credit for somebody else's success, or maybe they caught a tailwind and we're in the right place at the right time. You know, were they, were they lucky or good?

Mike (09:18.22)
No, exactly.

Mike (09:26.454)
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Jeff Mains (09:32.046)
could be either one, but just making that higher doesn't mean that you're gonna have that same success.

Mike (09:37.388)
I think the other thing to see your experience is you go, okay, so we're a million turnover and we now want to get to five. I'm going to hire someone that's in a big company and they've come from a big company and they're brilliant at selling and they've run 20 salespeople. So I'm going to hire them and they're going to build this thing into this engine. Exactly. Because they've been there before in bigger shoes and therefore they should have the experience.

Jeff Mains (09:58.818)
course, makes total sense, right?

Mike (10:06.636)
And then you find out that, you know, not always, but sometimes they arrive and it's like, well, where's my team and where's the infrastructure and where's all these leads that I'm going to like work on. And you're like, there aren't any, you've got to go and find the leads. You've to be a hunter. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I do. And it's, it's going from a big company or a medium sized company into a small entrepreneurial speedboat is completely different.

Jeff Mains (10:23.053)
Right, right.

Jeff Mains (10:33.784)
Yes. Yeah, very, very different.

Mike (10:35.67)
And relying upon inbound doesn't work. And in fact, Jeff, although not, it wasn't in the three big three questions, just get your view on, particularly in kind of tech SaaS. How do you generate leads because you can't rely on inbound, but outbound cold calling has got a bad rep and has got low success rates. you can improve it, but you need a tech stack. What's your view of how do you grow something?

in terms of lead gen that sustainably works for you.

Jeff Mains (11:12.23)
I think a few things. One is it's not an all or nothing strategy. So it's not all outbound. It's not all inbound. I think it's a combination of all of those. So you definitely want to drive inbound leads because those are going to have a lower cost for the most part. They're going to be much warmer than the cold market because they know something about you. So, you know, it could be ads, can be, you know, doing social, it can be doing media, it can be doing webinars. So something out there in the marketplace.

you where you're making a name for yourself. so making sure that, you're, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And so I think that's kind of the, the, the beginning part and kind of a top of funnel. And then you want to get them into your world. And once they come into your world, how is it that you're going to indoctrinate them into the way that you see the world? You know, that your solution is awesome and here's the problems that it solves. And these are the problems that, you have that, we can help you with.

Mike (11:44.278)
Yeah. Driving thought leadership, becoming an opinion leader.

Jeff Mains (12:09.038)
So, you what does that look like? How do you create that customer journey? How do you create that nurture sequence? And I think that's kind of the first step, you know, next, next line down the final is once they're in your world, once they've consumed something, how do you nurture them along that process to the point where they, think, you know, that you're the only solution for me. And that's what we want to do. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

Mike (12:29.11)
Yeah, and you're the trusted advisor.

I mean, think more and more now, Jeff. Sorry, go on, carry on. No, carry on.

Jeff Mains (12:37.134)
I would say some of that can happen, you know, even outbound. So outbound cold calls, maybe you're inviting them to a webinar. Maybe you're inviting them to an event or, you know, offering them something of value. So it's not calling them saying, Hey, do want to buy my stuff? no, they've never heard of you. They don't want to buy your stuff, but if you can call them outbound and offer them something that is truly valuable, now you've got their attention and now they're in your world. And now that nurture process can start. So you turn that, that cold outbound.

into a friend.

Mike (13:07.978)
Exactly. And I think ever more now I'm finding, and I guess it's how I was taught to sell. I was taught the kind of trusted advisor sales process where you build a trusting relationship with someone and then over time you start to work with them and then you work with them some more. And then before you know it, you're the person that they're calling to solve a bunch of problems. And even if you can't solve it, you will know someone that can and they'll trust your referral. I think more and more now people

are looking to that. Clients are looking for, well, are you my trusted advisor? And to do that, I believe you have to be narrow in focus, but very deep. Deep domain expertise in quite a narrow field of focus. And then people can start to trust your knowledge base.

Jeff Mains (13:55.448)
That happens a lot where you ask somebody who do you work with and they're like small business and medium sized businesses and big ones and we can find them and before long they're addressable market is the entire planet. And nobody can really serve that right. Anybody with money, anybody without money will finance. But you're right, you have to be very narrow, very specific.

Mike (14:09.176)
Yes. Who do you work with? Anyone at all? Anyone with money that's got a problem? Yeah, exactly.

Jeff Mains (14:24.193)
Because if you're for everyone, then you're really for no one. And the tighter you can bring that down and the more you can articulate who you're for and who you're not for, you can attract the customer base that is aligned with your values, that has the problem that you solve. And you can really build a nice business. But entrepreneurs a lot of times are really scared of going narrow. And it is a scary process actually.

Mike (14:27.362)
Agreed.

Mike (14:45.623)
Exactly.

Mike (14:50.381)
they are.

Jeff Mains (14:54.168)
two chapters in this on my book about going small. And that's one of the key principles to get big, go small. And as soon as you think you're small enough, go smaller. And when it's really, really scary and you think you're too small, go a little bit smaller, go a little bit narrow, go a little bit deeper. And that's where magic happens.

Mike (15:11.434)
Absolutely. And even just in the last few years with my advisory business, which is just me, I've refined the proposition a lot in the last few years because I'm finding where the market is. Where do people, what expertise are they really, really looking for that will make a big difference to their business? And then you find your niche. I focus on qualification, conversion, and negotiation. That's my thing.

Jeff Mains (15:26.445)
Yes.

Mike (15:40.512)
I do it in very particular sectors and I do it in very particular geographies. And that's starting to work, but it takes time.

Jeff Mains (15:48.62)
Yes. And that's a tough place to be is when it takes time. And you think, I make a mistake? Did I go too small? Is this market really going to work? And a lot of times you get there and you may be 80 or 90 % of the way to that breakthrough. And like, I got to do something different. And you go and you try a different market and you work that one for a while and you're 80 or 90 % of the way there. And, but you don't know it. And then you go, this is not working. I got to do something different. And you do that two or three times and then run out of money.

Mike (15:50.486)
And you've obviously done the same.

Mike (16:16.992)
Yeah, exactly right. Because you never really find your market because you keep switching. It's the bright shiny thing syndrome. It's a problem. So next question, Jeff. So kind of what have you tried personally, what have you seen from others that accelerates sales growth?

Jeff Mains (16:21.548)
Right. Right.

Jeff Mains (16:26.421)
it's so hard. Yes, that gets all of us.

Mike (16:42.146)
So what you're looking for here is like kind of the good, the bad and the ugly of how do you accelerate growth? When you found something that's working and you found your niche and then you start to go, right, okay, I've got a problem that I know that clients need solving. It creates value for those clients. Now I just need more clients to start to grow my revenues. What have you found works and what doesn't work?

Jeff Mains (17:07.458)
I think one of the most important things is to have a very well-defined buyer journey. I say well-defined, it's really feeding them the next step. At every point, so maybe it's the very top of the funnel, they come into your world, what do they need to know? What do they need to feel? What do they need to be comfortable with in order to take that next step? And what does that next step look like? Unfortunately, our prospects, don't know.

what the right next step is that we want them to take unless we kind of guide them or let them create their own, choose their own adventure and choose what is it that they want to do next? so give them some options. What is it they want to consume video content? Is it something that's a valuable ebook? Is it a case study? Is it a success story? What is it that will help them take that right next step?

Part of it, especially early on in the funnel, is teaching them what to want. They come into your world and they have a need, they have a problem. If you have your ICP well defined, ideal client profile, ideal customer profile, what is the problem that you solve? How do you show them, this is a problem and here are some solutions?

And here's a story of a company that had this similar type problem and here's what they did. So, you know, it's kind of teaching them what to want all along the way. And then, you know, positioning your solution as the solution to the problem.

Mike (18:45.078)
And I don't know if you ever watched a film many, many years ago called Glengarry Glen Ross. So yeah, and the ABC always be closing. It doesn't work now. know, it's a great film and it's of its time, but it was a great kind of sales film, but always be closing doesn't work. Clients don't want to be closed within the first couple of conversations. They want to build a relationship with you.

Jeff Mains (18:54.84)
Right. No, it doesn't.

Jeff Mains (19:08.31)
Right, right.

Jeff Mains (19:13.358)
Yes. And a lot of times early on, they don't necessarily want that relationship and you 70 % plus don't want to engage with a salesperson. And so how can you educate them? How can you provide them that information without engaging, you know, one-on-one and having that conversation? You know, what are the things that you can do? How can you let them do their research? Because they're going to do that anyway. So give them lots and lots of resources.

Mike (19:14.712)
a trusted relationship.

Mike (19:23.96)
That's right.

Mike (19:40.278)
Exactly.

Jeff Mains (19:42.582)
ungated resources, something that we're playing a lot with and have been really successful for other companies, is really ungating that content and just letting them consume. you know, where initially some of the bigger companies thought that sales would go down, actually went up quite a bit.

Mike (19:57.11)
Yeah. Interesting. Just talk about that. Let's dig into that a little bit more because people will be listening going, but if I don't have gated content, how do I collect their email address? And then if I'm going to email address, can't nurture them. and it's quite frightening. So what's your view on gated versus ungated around that kind of capturing their email?

Jeff Mains (20:10.722)
Right.

Jeff Mains (20:22.84)
Yeah, I think a lot of the content can be ungated and I think that's a really good thing because then they can consume, they can be educated. The highest value of the proprietary stuff, leave that gated because they're probably, if it is high value, they're going to be willing to trade their information. But what happens is when we try to gate everything or try to gate things that a lot of the lead magnets that are out there today are garbage.

Mike (20:47.916)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Correct.

Jeff Mains (20:49.376)
And it's just, it's not that great. And so what happens is, you know, our prospects have been educated that, what I'm going to get is probably not that valuable. So what do they give us something not that valuable? It's a temporary email address. is a, you know, a Gmail address that they never use. They collect spam. It's not their real stuff. So Bill, yes, yes. And so, and that's, then we've got emails that are bouncing and they're like, well, why is that?

Mike (21:09.026)
Or it's a made up one.

Jeff Mains (21:18.462)
It's because you know, the ask is too much compared to what we're giving. So give first, give freely. And then the things that really are valuable, the things that are really juicy, go ahead and hold that. But what you want to do is you want to build that trust first before you ask and make sure that the ask is not greater than the amount of trust that you've built.

Mike (21:23.361)
Exactly.

Mike (21:40.184)
Exactly, definitely. So I mean, just what do I do? What I often find is that I'll have several initial conversations over a period of three or six months, which I don't charge people for. That's just, I'm having a discussion. They've got a problem they're trying to solve. They're actually many times asking me to help them shape the problem statement and how you approach that problem. And that's really valuable.

Jeff Mains (22:08.365)
Yes.

Mike (22:08.458)
And if you're running a consultancy out there, trying to charge for that upfront, I think is a really bad idea. Because what you're signaling instantly to that person is, I only work if I get paid. It's like, well, that's not how you build a trusted relationship.

Jeff Mains (22:28.878)
That's exactly right. You got to build that trust. Yes.

Mike (22:30.712)
You've got to start by giving. You have. You've to start by giving, giving generously, and then knowing at what point it's like, well, there's either a discovery program to be done here or a program of work to be done here. Now we need to start shaping that. We need to start to define a scope of works. And then they'll say, yeah, that's right, because you've been very helpful. You've helped me define the problem statement. You've helped me get into what the solution might look like. Sure.

Yeah, now we can start to talk about a commercial arrangement.

Jeff Mains (23:04.546)
And when you help them come up with that problem statement, when you give them that clarity, they, one, they give you the credit for it, but then also they're attached to that solution. And if you help them define the problem, they assume, even if you haven't said it, they assume that you have the solution for that problem because you helped identify.

Mike (23:16.267)
Exactly.

Mike (23:22.52)
I was talking to salespeople Monday and Tuesday this week about exactly this. If you can help them reshape a problem and then define a solution set with them that they've co-developed with you, it's really hard for them to go out to market and try and compare. They don't really want to because they've worked it up with you and it's almost impossible for another provider to quote against something that's very similar.

Jeff Mains (23:52.664)
Right, right.

Mike (23:53.912)
because it's unique, it's bespoke.

Jeff Mains (23:58.616)
exactly where we want to be.

Mike (23:58.936)
So, Jeff, last kind of question really, which is what have you found are the kind of two or three key success factors in scaling a business from 1 million to 10 million? And you can talk broader than sales. You've obviously done this and been there. What was your experience of scaling from that first million of revenue up to 10 million? What did you have to get right?

Jeff Mains (24:26.83)
some really big things. One is making that transition, not just in sales, but in other areas of the business of hiring a team. so scaling beyond yourself and in doing that, know, trusting your team, hiring very competent people, not cheap people. They don't have to be crazy expensive, but it's people who are motivated, people who have experience in your company size, that they're excited about going on that growth journey with you.

And really bring expertise and that's what you want to hire is that expertise and then make that transition. Just like in the sales, you want to be working with them to understand how things are being done today and make sure that there's that smooth transition and let them add to it. And as they start doing that and making it better, don't take it back. It's, one of those things that I always make the joke. I've never given anything away that, doesn't have claw marks all over it me trying to, metal or take it back.

but you know, let them go, you know, let them operate in their zone of genius and, make that epic where, know, you can do it. And that's one of the things that we struggle with as entrepreneurs is we can do a lot of things. Some of it just because we have to, it doesn't mean that we're good at it or it's a superpower. It's just something that we can do. And so those are things, you know, let somebody who is, that is their superpower, let them take that over, let them do that and make it great. And then focus on those areas that really are.

your areas of expertise, your zone of genius. So I think that's one. Another is really managing cash is huge, especially as you continue to grow. It's not something that, hey, just because we hit a certain number, just doing more of the same thing is not going to necessarily get us where we need to go. But managing cash and runway and deploying it in a smart way.

Mike (26:00.984)
Exactly.

Mike (26:07.83)
Yeah, exactly.

Mike (26:20.578)
Definitely.

Jeff Mains (26:27.266)
is key. then along with that, again, the things that got you from zero to one are not going to get you to 10. There are really three big points where companies get stuck. One is going to be somewhere in the three, four sub five million dollar range. Usually it's around three or four. There's another one between five and seven, usually six ish. And then there's another one between seven and 10, between seven, eight. And companies will get stuck there.

And just doing more of the same thing doesn't get you where you need to go. It's a mindset shift. A lot of times it's a person shift, especially you get up to seven to 10 million. What happens is you've built the first layer team around you. And now maybe you're talking about building that second layer could be, could be further than that, but certainly a second layer around that. now instead of managing people, you're managing through people.

And so it's really understanding how to do that and how to lead through others, not just lead other people.

Mike (27:30.552)
and also not going around them. As you start to build your team, then, yeah, I remember several instances of this happening where when you go around that line of report, and it's not because, the hierarchy is just important. It's because you disrupt all sorts of things that you don't know are in train.

Jeff Mains (27:32.46)
Yes, yes.

Jeff Mains (27:49.046)
Yes. Yeah. That trust factor, the relationship. Yes. Yes.

Mike (27:50.626)
So having an open door policy is brilliant. Yeah. mean, having an open door is great, but you've got to be careful with the open door that people don't start to lobby you to do things that really are no longer your responsibility. And it's one of your director's responsibilities. saying, great conversation, go and see Jane because you work for Jane. See what Jane says because you've obviously got a program of work that you're working through. It's often because they don't like what Jane said and they want to try get you to influence that.

Jeff Mains (28:05.859)
Yes.

Jeff Mains (28:19.726)
Right, right. And you can really undermine somebody else's credibility, their authority, just by doing that, even if it's something that maybe, maybe you would have handled different. I've had that come up, you know, I probably would have done it differently, but I've got to back their manager in that decision. Yes. Because they, probably know more about it than I do just because I've been from the outside and a little, know I probably would have done it different. You know, they probably know things that I doubt. And so, but it's, it's about backing them.

Mike (28:23.916)
Yeah, massively.

Mike (28:34.882)
Correct. And their judgement. Yeah, absolutely.

Mike (28:47.84)
Exactly right. Yeah. So Jeff, it's been brilliant. Thank you. We could carry on for the half an hour easily, but we won't because it's about half, 25 minutes, half an hour episode. What's the kind of the final piece of advice you'd give to an entrepreneur that built their company to the first million? They're thinking of scaling up. Sales is normally one of their Achilles heels. What's the kind of one thing you'd say, think about this.

Jeff Mains (28:55.918)
Hahaha.

Mike (29:15.732)
as you start to go on that journey, get this thing right first before you start to create chaos.

Jeff Mains (29:23.69)
I would say alignment. so aligning sales and marketing is going to be huge, but aligning the entire company around your mission, vision, core values and your purpose. Everybody has to buy into that as a small company. You think about, you know, bringing in and hiring people. And I kind of look at it as the picture of you've got a bunch of people in their own canoes and they're paddling as hard as they can. And it's really fun and it's free and it feels really good and it's entrepreneurial.

And as you start to grow, when you start to scale, you need to get everybody in one boat and everybody rowing together and having that alignment. So you think about like a skull, everybody is rowing. And if one person is messing around or playing with their paddle, it messes up the entire thing. So you've got to have everybody rowing in the same direction. So all in one boat and, and entrepreneurs can resist that because it doesn't feel as fun and free and

Mike (29:57.037)
Yes.

Jeff Mains (30:16.398)
and that kind of thing. But if you're going to scale and really build into a significant business and get where you want to go, alignment is one of the key things that has to be in place in order to make that happen.

Mike (30:28.28)
Jeff, what a brilliant way to end the episode. Thank you ever so much. It's been a real pleasure. love the canoe and boat analogy. I think that's great because it is. I can picture it in a lot of businesses I've had where that's exactly the case. So brilliant insight. Thank you. Where can people find out more about you?

Jeff Mains (30:45.038)
Ha

Jeff Mains (30:49.518)
You can learn more about me at championleadership.com. And of course, check out the podcast. That's at sasfuel.com.

Mike (30:56.51)
When's the next book out, Geoff?

Jeff Mains (30:58.614)
Next book will be out probably the beginning of the year. We're looking to release dates of probably January 2025.

Mike (31:02.519)
Okay.

Mike (31:06.242)
Brilliant. So follow Jeff on LinkedIn and look out for that next book release. Jeff, thank you ever so much. It's been a pleasure.

Jeff Mains (31:09.698)
Yes. Thanks, Mike.

Mike (31:13.366)
So just stop the recording.